Walter Bruyere III, Rutgers College Class of 1939

NEW BRUNSWICK HISTORY DEPARTMENT:
ORAL HISTORY ARCHIVES OF WW-II
INTERVIEW WITH WALTER BRUYERE III

An Interview with Walter Bruyere III, for the Rutgers Oral History Archives of World War II. Interview conducted by G. Kurt Piehler and Elise Krotiuk in New Brunswick, New Jersey, on November 7, 1997. Transcript by Rebecca Karcher and Sean Harvey and Walter Bruyere III and Sandra Stewart Holyoak. Permission to quote from this transcript must be obtained from the Rutgers Oral History Archives of World War II.

The Rutgers Alumni Association has bestowed upon this Rutgers College Alumnus the title of Loyal Son of Rutgers for his years of dedication to improving the quality of the University.

Kurt Piehler: This begins an interview with Mr. Walter Bruyere III on November 7, 1997 at Rutgers University in New Brunswick New Jersey with Kurt Phieler and ...

Elise Krotiuk: Elise Krotiuk.

KP: And I guess I'd like to begin by asking you about your parents. Do you know how your parents met?

WB: No, I really don't know how they met because my mother was a resident of Montclair, New Jersey. My father was a resident of Newark. ... My grandfather in Newark was a doctor, and my mother's father was the chief civil engineer of Essex County at the time. This was back in the 1880s, 1890s. So they met some time, I guess, during the 1870s because they were married, I guess in, well, I'm a little hard on dates this time. They were married some time around 1905/ 1906.

KP: And your father ... was a businessman, it sounds like.

WB: He was a salesman, and his main job was traveling to Europe and visiting manufactures of woolen goods, and material of that type, for import to this country. He made quite a number of trips, back forth to Europe, between the 1907 to 1920, 1930 almost, until the bottom sort of dropped out. [Laughs]

KP: So ... your family had a hard time during the Great Depression, it sounds like.

WB: Yes, it was difficult. I had, well, there were three older sisters. But, we never had any problems. And there was always, I guess, a member of the family to help out every time we got into a problem, because ...

KP: When you say your father went away to Europe to travel, how long would he be gone for?

WB: He'd be gone maybe a month, or two months at a time.

KP: Which is a long time.

WB: Well, yes. In those days you had to travel by boat back and forth. He ... [Laughs] He was overseas when the Titanic made its maiden voyage, and he was thinking about coming back on that. [Laughs] Thank goodness he didn't, otherwise I wouldn't be here! [Laughs]

KP: Really? He told a story about, thinking, he was ready to take that ship?

WB: Yes. Yes.

KP: That was one of the ships he could have taken?

WB: Yes, something [came up] and he couldn't take it, so ... [Laughs]

KP: That almost sounds like the great family lore story. [Laughter] Your parents were originally from the Montclair/ Newark area.

WB: Yes.

KP: But, they ended up moving to the Jersey Shore area, in Red Bank.

WB: Yes, we moved around quite a bit. From Montclair to, we were in Manasquan for awhile, and then in Red Bank, and moved three or four different times in Red Bank. And I guess the moves were caused by the situation at the time, in a Depression era where we had to move to another place that we could take care of. And it was a little, I would say difficult, in those days. ... But, we always lived in Jersey, and we have never had any other thoughts of going any place else other than Jersey. That's why when I finally settled back down, I went back down to the Brick Town area myself, because I'm familiar with that country. It's worked out very nicely.

KP: So your parents were native New Jerseyans?

WB: Yes.

KP: And you, in fact, stayed a native New Jerseyan as well.

WB: Well, yes, my Bruyere family was a native in Jersey from ... 1700s. And had a Captain James Bruyere, who was a captain in the Jersey militia during the Revolutionary War. That type of thing.

KP: Was either your father or your mother active in say, The Sons of the American Revolution or The Daughters of the American Revolution?

WB: No. No, they were never active in that area.

KP: They were not participants in the ... social types of that nature.

WB: My father was always busy commuting back and forth to New York over time. My mother was busy taking care of the family, and taking care of the Women's Club in Red Bank. [Laughs]

KP: So your mother was an active clubwoman.

WB: Yes. Yes, she was quite busy in that type of thing.

KP: Any other organizations?

WB: No, no. Not that I know of. She was quite a faithful churchgoer, and my father didn't do very much in going to church. But my mother always had the sisters and myself attend church, probably every Sunday.

KP: And was your mother active any in church organizations?

WB: Not too much. No. She was active only from the point of tending service on Sunday, seeing that I went to Sunday school when I was young, later on seeing that I sang in the choir. That type of thing. [Laughter]

KP: The area that you grew up in along the Jersey shore, when you were growing up ... the towns weren't very big at the Jersey shore. There wasn't much in that part of Jersey compared to today ...

WB: No, not in that part of Jersey. And in the shore from Asbury Park on down, Asbury Park was still quite a place for the shore.

KP: Yes.

WB: And along on down through Sea Girt, and that type of thing, and Bay Head and the shore itself was quite the same. If you go along there now it hasn't changed too much.

KP: Yes.

WB: But you come a mile or two inland ... and the thing has changed completely. What used to be nothing but piney woods or cranberry bogs are now strip malls or houses, or what I call "wrinkle ranches." [Laughs] These old folks homes. Don't get me wrong, I'm in one myself. [Laughs] But not to the extent, that I ... It's just one of these places where you get your own house, you buy your own house, you have your own property, and things like that. It's not a home, or anything like that, it is just a, the only restriction is that you have to be fifty years old.

KP: Yeah, I guess, 'cause I've been to a number of the shore communities, in fact they are pretty much the same, but after, ... as you said, if you went two or three miles inland ... they're very different.

WB: Yes. Yes. It's terrible down there now, as far as the traffic and everything like that is concerned.

KP: And I partly ask because you were very active in the Boy Scouts. I read that you made Eagle Scout, and that you also were a Sea Scout.

WB: Yes. Well, my mother, I think, got me started in scouting when I just turned twelve, because you had to be twelve to be a Boy Scout in those days. And this was run by one of the churches in Red Bank. And I had a very good friend of my own age, who, he and I, went into the scouts together and we sort of went through all the different stages of scouting, up through Eagle Scout and everything else. And it was fortunate, I think, to have someone like that, where the two of us could trade back and forth and work together on everything. And it worked out very pretty well for us.

KP: Did your friend also make Eagle Scout?

WB: Yes. He and I made it at the same time.

KP: Wow, so you really ... were a team.

WB: Yes.

KP: What happened to your friend? Did he serve in the military too?

WB: He spent about a year or two at Rutgers in '38, I guess it was, in '37 or '38. But I think he tried out for the Air Force Cadets at the time, and was involved in an accident, and I don't think he ever got any further in the service than what I knew about him, because I lost touch with him. I have not been in touch with him for years now.

KP: But, in a sense, it sounds like you even came to Rutgers together.

WB: Yes.

EK: Did you mother ever work when you were young?

WB: Work? No. Not for a monetary thing.

EK: Right.

WB: Yes, she worked!

EK: She worked but ... was that of her own choice?

WB: What?

EK: Was that of her own choice?

WB: I think it was because there were four kids in the family, and my father was busy back and forth to New York all the time, commuting. And she had no choice in the matter. Okay, there's kids, you've gotta take care of them. But she did pretty well, because two of my sisters are still living. Celebrated the ninetieth birthday of my oldest sister. And I lost one sister about a year ago. She was quite a gal, because she had a problem back in the '30s, and was down in Florida for recuperation, and met a young man down there who was from Alaska. When she came back up, out of Florida, the young man followed her up. And I got a call when I was here, still at school, "Come home on Saturday and be my best man." [Laughs] So she did, and the two of them took off, back up to Alaska. She stayed up there all her life, raised a family of four boys and one girl. And the last time I was up there, about a year ago, she had quite a problem with emphysema. She still liked to smoke. [Laughs] When I was leaving, she looked up at me and says, "You know, this has been a wonderful life up here, and I've enjoyed every minute of it." [Laughs]

KP: Where did she live in Alaska?

WB: When they went up there they lived, if you are familiar with the terrain of Alaska, the Aleutian Peninsula comes down, and on the western beginning of the peninsula, there is a little town called, Dillingham. And her husband, at that time, was mainly involved in salmon fishing. And in those days they salmon fished from a sail boat type of thing. And in the winter they had a cabin. And then things got a little bit better for them all the time. And she kept raising a family. And her husband got involved in ... school teaching, and what little politics in the area. They moved over sometime, I guess maybe, after the mid-fifties, I guess, they moved over to a place just north of Fairbanks. No, not Fairbanks. The main city of Alaska.

EK: Anchorage?

WB: Anchorage. Thank you. That name always slips me. So, more about the girls?

KP: Well, I guess, only one of your sisters was able to attend college, and only briefly.

WB: She attended the Coop, NJC, for one year.

KP: The sister who ...

WB: She was the one who went to Alaska.

KP: Who went to Alaska. ... It sounds like she was something of an independent spirit.

WB: In a way, yes. Yes. And because she thrived on Alaska it was beautiful for her. She had, as I say, a wonderful life up there, and enjoyed every minute of it. And I don't know whether to believe this or not, but the reason she went to college for one year was she said, her mother found a diamond and cashed it in, and sold it, and gave her the money to go to college.

KP: And you're a little skeptical of that?

WB: Well, there used to be an old fraternity song about one of the fraternities, about finding a diamond someplace [Laughs] I won't repeat it.

KP: ... What activities were you involved in growing up? You were in the Boy Scouts, you went to church regularly. Where you involved in the Y or any other ...

WB: No. No. No. Boy Scouts. Then when I was old enough to join the Sea Scouts, because we were living in Red Bank at the time, and they [had] quite an active Sea Scouts troop there. ... And I found that very interesting, and enjoyed it very much indeed, because I always enjoyed being around boats, and I spent many times, not only on the Navesink River, but also down at Barnegat Bay at that time, too. So, it was sort of a natural thing for me to do, and I enjoyed it, and liked it very much indeed, but I had to give that up after I graduated from high school, and worked in New York City, for a couple of years before going to college.

KP: ... When did you graduate from high school? WB: I graduated in 1933. KP: So you had quite a gap between ... WB: So for two years I worked in New York City. KP: And you commuted in. WB: I commuted. My father and I commuted all the time. My one sister was working at that time, too. She'd commute, too, for about a year, until things changed. But, I had the most important job on Wall Street. What they called a runner in those days. You're just a messenger boy, and started out at fifteen dollars a week. And when Roosevelt came along with the, I guess the NRA, it raised it a dollar. Boy-oh-boy! Sixteen dollars a week! Wow! But, it was interesting because in the wintertime, I mean, in the summertime my mother would pack us up in the car, take us over to Atlantic Highlands, and we'd take the old Jersey Central boat right up to the foot of Liberty Street in New York City, and then pick it up in the evening on the way back. And she'd meet us at the car. And that's another thing my mother did, was drive us all the time. [Laughs]

KP: I'm thinking, also, how cool it must have been on the boat because there's not as much air conditioning there, and so ...
WB: It was great on that boat, I mean, after a ... KP: Right. Right. The breezes from the sea. WB: After a hot day in the city ... running on the hot streets all day long, to come out and sit on the deck of this little steamer, and spend, not quite an hour but forty-five minutes to an hour, for just refreshing and recuperation. ... It made you glad to be able to do it. KP: Growing up in a shore town, something of a tourist town, ... you get a lot of visitors in the summer, and then ... not so much in the winter.
WB: That didn't impress me one way or the other, as far as living at the shore and visitors. In other words, it was home and that's what home was. And we enjoyed it, and made the most of it. KP: ... One question we've asked a lot of people is, do you have memories, although you were very young, of Prohibition? WB: [Laughs] Let's see, living in Manasquan at the time. That's when the rum runners used to come in the Point Pleasant inlet. When these big, old, gray, rum running boats that they'd pick up a load from some mother ship off shore and bring it on inland. And the only reason I remember was, one where they had trouble coming in the inlet, and spilled everything overboard. [Laughter] I guess there were people gathering, miles of liquor for days afterward. [Laughter] And I know my father enjoyed drinking. Been travelling in Europe. ... He knew what. I still have a pin of his that I remember. It's a little, small, about an inch by an inch-and-a-half, white, enameled pin with a big, old horse fly built up on it. And it says, "... So and So's New York/Paris Bar. And the pin says, "IBF." International Bar Fly. [Laughter] It is a famous old bar. Harry's New York Bar it was. Right. But he enjoyed his liquor. He knew what it was. KP: ... Did he go into any speakeasies during the Prohibition period? WB: I guess he would, yes. Oh, yes. KP: Plus, I guess, it must have been strange to go back and forth from Europe, where there is no Prohibition, and then come back to the States. WB: Yes. It would be. It would be for him. KP: Yes. Yes. WB: Because when I started work in New York it was 1933. That was just about the time prohibition was repealed, and I'd meet him every once and a while for lunch, and ... it was in the bars; still had free lunch with your mug of beer. And that was going back many years. So that, I mean, he enjoyed that very much indeed.

KP: Another question we've asked a lot of people is, have any members of the Ku Klux Klan marched through your town?

WB: I remember as a kid watching Ku Klux Klan activity in Manasquan. And just from seeing them, that's about all I knew of it because I had no interest in what they were doing, in that type of thing. Other than the curiosity of, "There are a whole bunch of guys walking around in white sheets, and what are we going to do about it?" [Laughter] "Are they insane?"

KP: Were they parading?

WB: Parading, yes. I mean, it wasn't a huge parade. I mean, there might have been fifteen or twenty people involved in it, but that was the extent of it.

EK: Well, I guess I was just going to ask you, what did you and your family think of FDR when he took office? And the New Deal?

WB: Think of FDR when he took office? I can't tell you very much about that because my family didn't discuss politics too much at home, or ... while the children were around. So, as far as I was concerned, the only thing I knew about it was that when the banks closed I lost sixteen cents. [Laughter] One of the banks in Red Bank, at the time, they had the program in schools of collecting a nickel or a dime from kids and put it in the savings account. And I think I had sixteen cents in mine.

KP: And you lost your sixteen.

WB: Yes. I lost sixteen cents. [Laughs]

KP: And you said you did get a raise from the NRA. The minimum wage from the NRA.

WB: Yes. ... Up to sixteen dollars. But in those days, sixteen dollars, I almost think I had more money than I do now. Because your commutation ticket back and forth from Red Bank to New York averaged out about seven dollars a month. That was thirty days back and forth. And that included that boat in the summer time, so you didn't have to make a change because it was all run by the Jersey Central Railroad. So money wise, why, it was plenty.

KP: ... When you were going to school did you know you were going to college? Did you want to go to college? Did your parents hope ...

WB: They hoped I could. I was always in ... the academic type of courses in high school. And I guess I was realizing that at the time that I wanted to go to college, but I knew the family had no way of supporting college at all, at the time. But my, I guess, intense desire to be able to go to college some time was the fact that I had a hard time learning French in high school. And the first year of French I got through it, but the second year ... The first half of the second year I made it, but the second half of the second year it took me three times. The first time was a big "F," the second time was a "D," the third time I said, "Well, I might as well try for a 'C.'" I think ... the teacher at the time was sorry for me, and said, "Okay, here you are."

KP: Well, it's funny you mention that because we found some of your old columns in the "Rutgers Alumni Magazine," and you had an experience of staying with a French couple in North Africa. And you were talking about your problems with their English and your French, in March of 1943.

WB: Yes. Well, this was when I first went to North Africa. I was with a, just a flunky, in Eisenhower's headquarters. And our job, the unit I was with, our job was to handle all of the essential requirements for the headquarters itself. That included food, building, paper, pencils, ink, and everything like that. And for people to live, well, you had to go out to the civilian and get, "All right, here's a nice house. We'll requisition this house." And the French had it set up so you could requisition. You present the requisition and the family would either make room for you, or else they'd move out someplace else. And that was all right in a way, but in my case, when I first went there, why I stayed with this French family and they were very interesting. I guess he'd been in the French army. And I often wondered what ever became of them, with the situation over in Algiers the way it is now. But I image they ... He was, I guess, a World War I veteran so ...

KP: Right. Did your French get any better?

WB: It, Comme-ci-va? J'ai vais bien. Et vous? [Laughs] That type of things, yes. But to be able to discuss an intelligent subject in French, no.

KP: It sounds like, in addition to Boy Scouts, ... you were probably a fairly active athlete in high school. Were you?

WB: Yes. Yes.

KP: What sports did you play?

WB: Played football for four years in high school, and also track. I was a discus thrower. Football was quite something in those days. As a look back on it, what a big difference there is between football today and football when I was playing because I always remember the first football game I got into. I mean, high school level football. I was a third string sub at the time. Didn't even have a game jersey, just the old ... gray sweatshirt on, and I guess, the last game of the season the score was about forty-two to nothing, in our favor. The coach says, "Okay, Bruyere, you can go in now." ... And he says, "What position do you play?" I told him. He said, "Well, instead of playing that position, when you get in, tell him to move over." So I run in, and I say, "Hey, Tim, the coach says move over," and the whistle blew. The referee says, "Penalized five yards. Talking before the ... first play has been run off." That was the rule in those days. Where as now ... it looks like Broadway and 42nd Street every time there's a change.

KP: What other changes do you remember? Particularly now, looking at the way football is played today.

WB: Football today, to me, depends too much on the quarterback. In other words, he is the key man as far as the whole team, and the whole season, is concerned. Whereas in my day, the ... quarterback was just a man who, like another back. In other words, he would receive a ball. Once in a while, the ball was passed from the center to either the halfback, or a fullback, or the quarterback. And it depended on the plays, and the development of the plays. The quarterback didn't have near as much activity as he does now. I mean, he controls the whole situation these days. And that's is why you get some team that says, "Okay, let's get the quarterback," why you're gonna have problems. But, as far as that's concerned, that's the main difference, I think, in the whole game now.

KP: Growing up, I often ask people, what did you do for fun? ... Did you go to the movies at all growing up?

WB: Yes. Yes. We went to the movies regularly, Saturday afternoon, to the matinee. Buck Rodgers, Tom Mix, all those old horse opera characters. And the Strand Theater in Red Bank was the one we go to. They always had a newsreel, the serial of some kind, the "Green Hornet" or what ever it was, and then the Western. And it was a real Saturday afternoon ritual. You'd go into Woolworth's and spend maybe a nickel on a bunch of candy, or chewing gum. And movies in those days, I guess, would be about fifteen or twenty cents for the afternoon, and that was it. And once in a while, why, a big evening, the family would take you to the Carleton Theater in Red Bank, which was the ... brand new theater. I think it's now the Count Basie Theater, and for special showings, and something like that. Otherwise, entertainment was listening to the radio and reading. And then I liked to work with my hands and building little things. Model boats at that time, making them out of kits that came in that ... stage and era. Nothing compared to what they have these days.

KP: Right.

WB: I mean, they were really basic ABC type of things. And model boats are what keep me going now.

KP: Really, you're still into ...

WB: Absolutely. I'm up to my ears.

KP: This is a little ahead of the story, but given your interest in the sea, had you thought or would you have liked to have joined the Navy instead of the Army? I mean, 'cause you were, sort of, in ROTC. We don't have a Navy ROTC here. From my understanding, it didn't exist before World War II.

WB: I aspired to go to the Naval Academy when I was in high school. And in those days, you had to get an appointment from a senator. And I tried three times to take the appointment test that the Jersey senator ran at the time. And, I mean, it was an extensive test from English, Physics, everything down the line. You'd have to spend ... I even came up here to ... where the old post office used to be on the corner of George and the Main Street in town. That's where the post office [was] and ... he ran the test there. But, with my student ability I could never make it. Never made it. So, when I got the opportunity to come to Rutgers, why, that's when I started right off in the ROTC program.

KP: But, you, ideally, would have liked to be a naval officer it sounds like.

WB: Yes. ... That is what I really, when I was a kid, wanted to be. But, circumstances were such that I had to take an opportunity of what was available.

EK: How did the opportunity to come to Rutgers arise?

WB: A very good friend of mine. A fellow by the name of Dick Hammell. I knew him well in Red Bank. He was also in the Sea Scouts with me, and that type of thing. We were great pals. And when I was working in the city, why, he came to Rutgers in his first year. And he asked me to come over one weekend. So I came over and visited him, and he took me around, had a lot of friends in the old Phi Gam house, met another Phi Gam, who was Assistant Dean of Men at the time, Ed Curtin. And they just got me interested in it and told me about the Upson scholarship program that was available here at Rutgers. So I followed through on that, and applied for the Upson scholarship, and was informed that I would be granted one. So, when I got that, I said "thanks" to my boss in New York City. He was very, very helpful. Very nice.

KP: ... Before we talk about Rutgers, you graduated from high school and worked for a while.

WB: Yes.

KP: You've talked about commuting. How did you get the job as the runner?

WB: Let's say it was a family connection. I had an uncle that had his own house on Wall Street. And his wife, my aunt, I guess, had talked him into, "Can you get little Bobby Bruyere a job someplace?"

KP: Because jobs were very hard to get. Even if the job was bad. If it wasn't a great job it was still ...

WB: So, evidently he used his influence with a very good friend of his, a small brokerage house by the name of Foster Marvin. And it was small. I mean, there were only about ... twenty-five or thirty employees in the whole house. Bu it was a wonderful opportunity, and quite broadening as far as experience was concerned.

KP: When you say it was broadening, in what way? What did you learn ... ?

WB: Well, let's say it's like a country boy going to the city. And here you are. You're thrown into the middle of this, all, thing, and it's either sink or swim, and you got to find your way around, you got to know what to do and how to do it. And from that point of view it was interesting, because it was new, and it was being paid for.

KP: ... Had you been to New York very much before working there?

WB: Yes. ... This uncle of mine, that got me the job, actually lived in New York City, and my aunt, his wife, would invite us up to the city every once in a while. In other words, I had a cousin who was living with them, and he had lost his mother and father years ago, and she was bringing him up, and he was about my age. So we'd go up and visit him, or them, in their apartment up in someplace in the city. And in, maybe, Christmas time was a big time we'd go up there. She'd show us around the city, and that type of thing. So, in a way, we were familiar with New York and what it is about, but not enough at the time to be able to do anything about it ourselves, because it was always a family proposition.

KP: It sounds like you had to learn how to get around in New York.

WB: Well, the easiest way to do that, I found, was just asking. I mean, "I have to go this building. Can you tell me which one it is?" Or learning the subway system at that time. At that time it was a nickel in the slot and you could ride the subway all day long if you wanted to, but the different routes, and everything like that, you just had to ask questions.

KP: New York's subway is a very intimidating system.

WB: Right. Yes. Because, yes, it is now more so, I think. I was in, a couple of years ago, and tried to find some information from one of the tellers in the booth. No. Not a word. You gotta put your money in the slot where they can't get into it. You have to reach in and pull it out like you're scraping money ... out of a dish.

KP: ... Wall Street had really, it's an understatement, had really been in the news because of 1929, because of the '20s.

WB: Yes.

KP: The great boom market that went bust. I mean, what was it like to work ... on a Wall Street that's really in recovery. It would take decades for the stock index to recover to the levels it had approached in the late '20s.

WB: Well, I don't know. I must say that I've not too much ability to analyze the stock market in that respect because my job was, more or less, a footwork.

KP: Right. Right.

WB: But in those days, I mean, the big crash of '29, let's see, the volume on the New York Stock Exchange for that day was sixteen million shares. And if you look at the volume today, it's over, what is it, fresh over a ... billion shares. And it's pure volume now. Which is possible because of the automated systems they have, the computer systems. Whereas in those days you just had the ticker tape. There was a fellow reading the ticker tape as it would come off the ticker, and he'd have a big board up in the office, and put down the various prices on each stock as it came across. But it was so much different.

KP: ... What I sense is, that the job of a runner was a much more important job in your day than ...

WB: Well, yes. It was the only way to get things around.

KP: Now you transfer electronically.

WB: Now you can fax anything you want to.

KP: Yes. Yes.

WB: But, no. Mainly, for example, they'd make a sale, and there were no book ... A word I'm trying to think of. Well, in those day you had a certificate. You'd buy something, you'd get a certificate. And the certificate in the hand of the brokerage house might have the name of John Doe on it. So you'd have to take the certificate to a transfer agent, and have it transferred into the proper name. And that was, for example, every certificate you had, had to go through that process. And for everything else you'd have to confirm all the sales by a little various slip, and you'd have to take it to the next brokerage house that sold it, and get a confirmation on it, or something to that nature. So it was footwork, and hand to hand, rather than punching a few digits on a machine. KP: And hence, ... I mean, runners were pretty important moving all this paper around between brokerage firms. WB: You don't realize it's important when you're doing it. KP: Really? WB: No, you don't. I mean, you're given a wad of certificates. Maybe a whole bunch of General Motors stock shares. And you'd have to put these in a sack, and take them uptown to General Motors' building where they'd have to do the transfer. Then you'd have to go back some day and pick it up. But, you didn't think anything about the value of it at the time because to me it had no personal value. The only time I felt personal about carrying something was, ... I was trying to try to go to college, before my friend had brought me over here, and ... I had an interview with a guy [who] was interested in the University of Pennsylvania. And I had [met] with him, and then didn't hear anything from him, and I called him up on the phone. He said, "Sorry, we couldn't do anything about it," at that time. My next job was, "Take this thousand dollar bill down to the bank and get it changed into hundred dollars, so John Joe can go on his vacation." That hurt. That hurt. KP: The same guy who told you he really couldn't help you, you know? [Laughs] The guy who told you to change ... WB: No, this was ... KP: That was someone in your firm? WB: No, it wasn't somebody in my firm that I had interviewed with. It was a different outfit completely. But in the firm ... KP: Someone had ...

WB: Yes. It was another job. Another job.

KP: Okay. WB: 'Cause you had the head runner, and he'd allocate these things out to you all the time. KP: ... You were a small firm. How many runners were there? WB: I guess there were five or six runners. KP: And what were their ages? Were they all in high school? WB: They were all fairly young. I was seventeen/eighteen/nineteen. They would be early twenties, at the most. Maybe twenty-five. The head runner was married. And I know he worked. His wife worked. I don't know what he was making. I guess, he was making about twenty-five/thirty dollars a week. So, ... that was pretty good money in those days.

KP: ... Did you think you might stay in Wall Street, or this was just a temporary job until you could go to college?

WB: I still had the idea I wanted to go to college. And when this opportunity presented itself, why, then there was no question about it at all. ... Maybe one of my motivating factors was, I still wanted to play football.

KP: Really? Did that ...

WB: Yes. Yes. Even when I was working in the city, in the fall I would join, well, not a semi-pro team but just a local football team. And we'd play Sunday afternoons. ... The game was up in old Leonardo High School, which, I guess, now is Middletown North, or something like that. ... We played every Sunday afternoon all during the fall. And I'd come home in the evenings, maybe, two or three times a week, and rush in the car and go over, and ... we'd practice for an hour, under lights. And we had a pretty good team that year. I think we won about ten games, tied one, and lost one. So, when, as I say, it was a motivating factor, I said, "Okay, college, I can still play football." ... I liked it. I liked it at the time. I didn't have any serious difficulty with football at all. Anything of that nature. A few minor bangs and bumps throughout four years of high school, and two years of working, and four years of college. I got tired of football, right at the end of the war. I was in Frankfurt, Germany. ... We were getting all the recreation facilities back into business. I mean, swimming pools, athletic fields, tennis courts, everything under the sun. And we also had organized football. And, okay, boy, I put on a uniform for one day and said, "Okay, you guys, you're getting younger all the time. That's enough for me." [Laughs]

KP: In the ... Army there were some good players. I mean, they were professional players.

WB: Yes. Yes.

KP: Yes. ... I have been told some bases' division commanders took football very seriously. That they ...

WB: Yes. Right after the war, why, it was, "What else are you going to do?" You're over there in occupational status. And here you got all these old football players lying around just itching to do something. So ...

KP: ... You came to Rutgers with the Depression still very much raging.

WB: Yes.

KP: And we've read a lot of the Targums. It was tough. I mean, you had the Upson, but it was still pretty tough over here.

WB: Okay. I had the Upson. And also, you might say, that I had an ace in the hole because the Phi Gamma Delta wanted to pledge me. And I told them, I said, "Look, fellas, I have this scholarship. That's all I have. I don't have a red cent to my name." Other than, I think, I had fifty bucks, or something like that, that I saved up from working. They said, "Well, okay, we can get you a job in the, washing dishes, or in the kitchen and waiting tables." Things like that. So between that, and the Upson, and the fraternity, I was able to survive.

---------------------------------- END SIDE ONE, TAPE ONE ----------------------------------

WB: Plus the first freshman year they had the National Youth Program, where you could work ... for twenty-five cents an hour. And for about two times a week I would walk over, from the fraternity on George Street, to the cow barn over on the dairy farm, shovel cow manure for maybe an hour or two, walk back, go to the gym smelling of cow manure, taking off these clothes, taking a shower, taking a swim in the pool, and then come back to the fraternity, and wash dishes with suppertime. [Laughs] So, when I look back on it now, I say, "How the heck did I ever do that?" [Laughs]

KP: Why was your fraternity so eager to pledge you? Because you were ...

WB: Well, let's see. I had made All-State football in my senior year in high school. That was a team run by the old Newark Sunday Call. That was one of the Newark papers at the time. And I also had the first place in the Jersey State discus throwing, which, in those days, I mean, if you could throw it out a hundred-twenty feet, why, you had it made. [Laughs] So, I guess that had some incentive to get ...

KP: Yes. One of the things, Ralph Schmidt, who was part of the Class of '42, he was an Upson ... scholarship holder. He said during his interview he got to the football field, because he'd gotten this Upson scholarship, and he got on the football field, ... with the other freshman there, and they were also Upson scholarship holders. And he, sort of, almost realized that it's not an accident, in terms of the football team and the Upson scholarship holders. Did you have any sense of, not an obligation to play football, but that that was a real factor in getting the Upson scholarship.

WB: No. No, it never entered my mind that I had an obligation. That was my incentive, you might say my, basic incentive, because I wanted to play and there is no doubt about it. "Here's my opportunity, let's go to work on it."

KP: Right. But you didn't feel the obligation that you had to play football ...

WB: No.

KP: ... to fulfill the Upson?

WB: No, not at all. There was no pressure along that line, or anything like it, to cause me to feel that way. So, as far as I can say, it worked out very nicely.

KP: ... You mentioned your first game in high school. What, obviously, one of the highlights for your football career was the great ... victory over Princeton at the opening of the stadium.

WB: Yes.

KP: What other memories do you have of your ... football career at Rutgers?

WB: Well, let's see. Along with that same thing, they had another rule, in those days, where coaching from the sidelines was a penalty. And every time I see now a short break the man comes in the scene, gets on the bench, and takes a drink of Gatoraid or something like that. In those days, "Don't drink water. Don't drink anything." In the half they'd give you half a lemon to suck on. That was it. And then in the time-out, the fellow would run out with a water bucket. And in the water bucket would be one of these old natural sponges. Dark brown natural sponge. And you'd take a bite out of it, get a little water in your mouth, and have to spit it out. [Laughter] Now this was all right, but when you're playing with a team that had people like, Rosati, Zucco, Mazza, Picone, things like that, every once in a while in the huddle, somebody would come up with a crack, and say, "Hey, Pedro, tell the Mama not to put so much garlic in the sauce next Saturday." [Laughs] I get exhausted, talking this way. [Laughs]

EK: Your team ... is kind of a legend for having beat Princeton. Can you tell me what ... that game was like, and what the reaction of the crowd was like, and everything?

WB: Playing it is just another football game. But the reaction comes at that final minute when the game is ended, and all you can do is stand there and say, "Oh, my God, we won it." Utter amazement in a way, because the previous year we lost to Princeton six to nothing. The year before that we lost twenty to nothing. Then in my freshman year, was one year they almost beat Princeton. We're ahead in the last quarter. Princeton came ahead and won. So it was just a matter of extreme pleasure, of being able to stand in the middle of that field while everybody is running around hootin' and hollerin', and just stand there and say, "Oh, my God! Thank God for it."

KP: 'Cause it was quite a spontaneous parade in New Brunswick celebrating the victory.

WB: Yes. I didn't participate in any parades after that victory. I always went down and went to the movie. In the evening ... after every game. That was the way.

KP: Really? You would go to the movie. Sounds like that was a Saturday ...

WB: That was the big State Theater. I guess it was.

KP: Right.

WB: They always gave us passes. And, at the time, you'd go there, they'd write you out a little pass. You go in and the fellow would take you up in the baloney and let you sit in the lodge seaters. You'd really feel big as you sit there and enjoy it, relax, and get over your bumps and bruises. [Laughter]

KP: Are there any other memorable games that you remember besides the great Princeton victory?

WB: There's so many of them when you go back through them. But that, I guess, is the most outstanding memory that I have. Others were, well, a high school game. I played against a team from South River. Now South River, in those days, High School was a powerful team. Their center was Alex Wojochoski, outstanding All-American from Fordham, in those days. And three to four others like that. Also including a fella named Wally Pringle who was Rutgers quarterback here my sophomore year. I played against him there. And that type of thing is things you stick in your mind, as far as memory of various types of games. But, another game that I remember was freshman year. We had freshman teams in those days, and I must say, we had a team that wasn't very good. We had a game with Army plebes up in West Point. And the most enjoyable thing on that was the trip up and the trip back. [Laughter] We had mess in the Army mess hall, and that was very interesting, but the game itself, I guess, because we were behind, in the 30s or 40s to nothing. The Army plebe team, that year, was unscored on, untied, unbeaten, and that type of thing. Here they were. We were 30/ 40 to nothing behind them, back on our own three or four yard line, and had a little quarterback, Joe Dorrington. And he turns to our big halfback, Moon Mullen, at that time, and he says, "Moon, I don't know what you can do with it, but you can kick it, pass it, run it. Do what you think best." So I don't know what went through Moon's mind, but he decided to run, and went a hundred-five yards, with the only touchdown scored against the plebe team that year. [Laughter] It's like Larry Pitt always tells me that I scored the last touchdown played on Neilson Field.

KP: Really, you were the last?

WB: The last touchdown made on old Neilson Field was, what game was it? ... I mean, it was Springfield, or something like that. And somebody had blocked the punt, and here was this football lying around, and I grabbed it. Took it over for a touchdown, and that was the last one made there. After that, we played everything, all the games, ... across the river.

EK: Judging from how big a thing football was when you were here, how do you feel about the football team now at Rutgers?

WB: I wish you hadn't asked me that. [Laughs] It's disappointing in away because you see so much potential. And I feel sorry for the kids themselves who are out there trying to do the best they can, but everything seems to go wrong for them. And what it is, I don't know, but that's the way I feel about it. I'm almost crying in my beer over that, for them, because they are hoping to get someplace in football. Because you have to recognize now, that with the professional football the way it is, that a lot of these kids are hoping to be able to make it in the professional area. And when you're in a situation as we are in here today, why, their hopes and aspirations are really quite dampened. So it's difficult. I'd like to see 'em go ahead and win every darn game if you don't mind. But, sometimes it's just impossible.

KP: ... Did you or anyone else on your teams have any thoughts of going professional? Playing professionally?

WB: No.

KP: No. You wanted to play, but you knew that ...

WB: Pro-ball in those days didn't have the appeal that it does now. And it was, sort of, almost like a bush league or something, in that day. ... I remember going up, took the team to see the New York Giants play in the old Polo Grounds. And it was just another football game, but there [was] no, let's see, thinking about graduating from college and then going into pro-ball. No. No.

KP: That was very alien.

WB: You are thinking about graduating from college and hoping that the next two to three years you could make a salary of $2500 a year, or something like that. That was your hopes and desires then.

KP: In addition to football, you were quite a "man about campus," in terms of your activities. You ...

WB: I have thought about that many times and all I can say, ... I think that fraternity that I was a member of, Phi Gamma, the people in the fraternity, did most of everything. In other words, I was, sort of felt like I was just rolling along ... with the tide. Why or not, I don't know. I didn't give it any thought about at all.

KP: Besides playing football, you ended up becoming the student council president.

WB: Yes. Well, that's ...

KP: You elected to take advanced ROTC, but you also chaired a lot of the balls, events, and dances you had.

WB: Yes. Well, ... that was fraternity politics in those days. I think. Because there were about four or five other fellows who were members of different fraternities that we were, fairly, buddies. I think, we went from the Soph Hop, to the Junior Prom, to the Senior, and then Military Ball, and that type of thing. Purely, let's say, collaboration between the various fraternities.

KP: Because, in fact, that's what a number of people have told me, that their fraternities often will band together to elect their slates of candidates.

WB: Yes.

KP: And sometimes the commuters and the Barbarians will organize to oppose the fraternity slates.

WB: That's right.

KP: But often the fraternities are the victors because ...

WB: Well, true. Yes. Because your fraternities, I would say, have a majority of the students involved at the time. But now, I'd say, it's quite different.

KP: One of the standard questions that we ask everyone is, did you know Dean Metzger and what did you think of Dean Metzger?

WB: Old Dean Frasier Metzger. I liked him. Very much indeed. He and I got along very well. And any problems, why, I got a little short of funds one time, and went up and talked to the Dean, and he loaned me seventy/seventy-five bucks for taking care of various things. And I finally was able to pay him back after a couple of years, ... but I always liked him ...very much indeed. And his assistant then was Edward Curtain, who I knew very well. I guess, he was a fraternity brother, also Phi Gamma Delta. I guess, he was probably one of the main factors, I guess, that I got the Upson Scholarship. So part of my job here, when I was working, was delivering newspapers in the morning. KP: So you did that, too? WB: Yes, every morning. The New York Tribune and The New York Times. [Phone Rings] You wanna go ahead?

KP: No. Go ahead.

WB: Okay. Delivering these papers, and I did have an old car at the time, an old Model-A Ford. And I used that. The papers you could roll up in a little ball and sling out, so they'd throw. And I had to deliver to Dean Metzer's house on, yes, College Avenue. It was right next to old Bishop House. In that area. It had a big plate glass front door. And one morning this paper went through and "bing."

KP: It broke the ...

WB: Broke the door. [Laughs] I called up the Dean, "This is Walter Bruyere. I'm sorry about your door. I busted it." And he was very, very, very nice about it. He said, "Don't worry about it. We'll get it taken care of." KP: Another question, 'cause it's closely related to Dean Metzger, did you attend chapel regularly? Did you go to chapel services? WB: That's where I was working, too, because you had to take attendance in chapel in those days. And so ... let's see, Monday sophomores ... freshman, junior, seniors ... at noontime. So you'd have to take attendance . Everybody'd be assigned a seat, and you'd check 'em off, and give a report back to the Dean's office. For which they paid you. I made another twenty-five cents an hour, so ... And so, Sunday was about the same thing, but a little different. And I know, after one Sunday service, I was walking down George Street towards the Old Queens. And the doctor, the University doctor at the time, was coming towards me with the key speaker for the Sunday sermon. He was the Dean of Yale Divinity School. And Doc asked me, "Well, what'd you think of church today?" I said, "Well, the only reason I go to church is because I get paid for it." [Laughter] So, there again, I don't know that I made any favors or not. [Laughter] Oh, my. EK: You were a business administration major. Is that right? WB: Yes. EK: What made you choose that? WB: I guess with my experience in Wall Street, and my natural desire, I guess, to look at things on paper, reports and that type of thing, rather than going into a profession of any type, or coaching of that nature. No, it doesn't have any appeal to me. And maybe business administration was, maybe, something I thought I could handle, rather than an engineering course, or something of that nature. Because I wasn't much of a student. I grant you that. ... Mathematics would go over my head all of the time. And I mentioned my French. [Laughs] KP: You had mentioned that Professor Reager was your favorite professor at Rutgers. WB: Yes. He was a public speaking teacher. And the opening ceremonies for my senior year I had to give a speech to [everyone]. And at that time, they were practicing football down at the camp in Sea Girt, and I had to come back up here. And finally, I got together with Professor Reager, and he said, "Well, you don't know what you're going to talk about?" And I said, "No, I don't have any idea," at the time. So he wrote me a speech which I read off from the podium and got away with it that way. And then I took his pubic speaking class for that year. [Laugher] However, that helped me out a lot because in a military career you're doing a lot of speaking. You are doing a lot of formal instruction. I mean, as instructor at the infantry school at Fort Benning. I was a PMS&T assistant at the University of Hawaii, teaching classes there, too. ... I mean, that's a formal type of speaking, whereas with a platoon, you're instructing men from platoon, company, battalion level on up. So, as I say, whatever he instilled in me, at the time, through his course, I had a great deal of benefit on it. I also had a great deal of benefit to my wife's persistence, and having practice, practice, practice, practice, which helped a lot. [Laughs] KP: ... Since you brought up your wife, you met your wife, ... it sounds like, around the time you were in college. Or was it even earlier? WB: No. I met her while I was still in high school. KP: Okay.

WB: Yes. She was from Montclair. And I was up visiting a cousin in Montclair on, the New Year's Eve Party. I met her there. That was the summer of 1932. I would go up and see her every once in a while. And ... I graduated. I was still working in the city. She graduated from Montclair High School and went to Carnegie Tech, and, in their School of Dramatics, and she graduated from there in ... 1940. She had one summer session with a playhouse out in Lake Erie. Evidently, it did not seem to tie into what she felt was an acting career, so, we finally decided, "Let's get married sometime." [Laughter] Let's see, at that time I was stationed in Massachusetts. And every once in a while, I would have money to make the trip back here to Jersey. And so, one of those trips, why, I said, "Okay. Let's get married." [Laughter] KP: So I take it that you and your future wife went to a lot of the balls and dances here at Rutgers?

WB: No.

KP: No?

WB: No, we didn't.

KP: Really?

WB: No, no, no. Because she was always involved, most of the time, out in Pittsburgh.

KP: So you would write to each other.

WB: Yes, we always wrote back in forth, all the time. Two or three times a week. And so ...

KP: You elected to stay in ROTC. I mean, you took the basic, but you elected to take advanced.

WB: Yes.

KP: Did you think that you wanted a career in the military?

WB: No, not at time. I guess, I was influenced by a brother-in-law of mine, who spoke to me before I went to college about the ROTC program and its advantages. And he said, "While you're there, you might just as well take advantage of it." Which I did. And so I went into the advanced. And then at the, right toward the end of the senior year the government ... re-instituted a program of, instead of going into the reserve program when you graduated, you are issued a, if you wanted it, a regular Army commission. So I applied for it and received a regular Army commission at that time. In other words, that was the same status as if I had graduated from West Point. Only not having the "old school tie" and that type of thing.

KP: There's a lot of people who were in ROTC in the '30s. They ... often didn't get active service. They just were put in the reserves. 'Cause there were no spaces, literally, no spaces for them.

WB: Yes, that's right. Yes.

KP: Did you think that that might, initially, that might be the case. That you would stay in the reserves and not get active duty.

WB: No, I put in for a regular commission just because ...

KP: You were eager to go into regular duty.

WB: It was available and it was something, "Well, I might just as well to try for and see what I can get. Because, I think, at that time, well, I had been offered a job with Burrough's Adding Machine Company when I graduated. As a matter-of-fact, when I graduated, why, I worked for them for about a month, until I got notification from the Army that I was getting the regular commission. I had to take this in and show it to the boss and they said, "Well, sorry. Goodbye, boy." [Laughter] But, I suppose if I had stayed with Burrough's, why, it would have been another three or four months or a year before I'd be called to active duty again.

KP: Right. In late '30s, you mentioned that your family wasn't too politically active. What about your fellow Rutgers students? Do you remember, for example, the 1936 election? Do you recall what they thought?

WB: 1936? Not too much. There was quite a heated argument over Roosevelt's reelection in '36. Yes, that was the first one. I remember fraternity brothers arguing back and forth for, who was the, not Alf Landen ...

KP: ... Norman Thomas?

WB: No, no, no, no. No, I think it was Alf Landen who was running against Roosevelt at the time.

KP: Yes.

WB: And there are lots of pros and cons. Fraternity discussion. That type of thing. But, I did not enter into it much myself. I guess, I was too busy working away and doing things.

KP: There was also in the '30s, there was ... some wide spread sentiment on a lot of campuses, strong support for the peace movement, and even some protest, on some campuses, over ROTC. Do you remember any of those ... discussions?

WB: Not that it had a serious effect on anything. I remember peace demonstrations. Things like that. But not too much publicity on them. And, "Okay, if he wants to talk that way, shout his mouth off, or something like that, let him go ahead." Because otherwise, here's the status quo, and it's gonna go ahead this way anyway. ... I guess in the mid-thirtyies you really didn't expect the world to erupt into a war the way it did.

KP: So you had no sense that ...

WB: We were aware in my, let's say my senior year, of the impact Hitler was having on the world. And felt that something was probably going to happen, Lord knows when. But it's like I said, I received my regular Army commission dated, 1 September 1939. Which was the day that Hitler went into Poland.

KP: It's a great day to get a [commission]. In a sense, your Army service started on the first day of the war.

WB: Yes. Yes.

KP: Before going into the Army is there anything about Rutgers ... we forgot to ask you about? Because you, I guess, you also acted in the Queens Players?

WB: No, I didn't act. I was behind the scenes. Stage manger and that type of thing. And ... they had a couple of shows. My junior year we put one on over at the high school, and that one, I thought, was pretty good. 'Cause a lot we had, people enjoy it. Then, the senior year, I don't know, a couple of the guys putting it together ran wild. [Laughs] They put on this show at the gym, at that time, and somebody cooked up the idea, "Well, okay, let's have a traveling show." We took it up to Paterson. And we had to clean everything out of the gym after the last show, truck it on up to Paterson, and get it set up again for the next night. And I remember doing their driving. This darn truck which the Ford Company had loaned us. And packing everything into the truck, driving three or four times, back and forth, then getting things set up. And then, one night, show up there and then tearing it all down and bringing it back. [Laughter] That was about the time Easter vacation of our senior year. But, no. I wasn't an actor at all.

EK: What did you do during summers at Rutgers?

WB: I went home to Red Bank at that time, and handled ice for the Seaboard Ice Company.

KP: ... Did you deliver ice?

WB: No. I worked on their icehouse platform, loading ice trucks. And the regular delivery trucks would come in and they'd pick up their load for the day, and about every hour or so a fellow would back up a big, huge truck and they'd have to load this with large cakes, three hundred pound cakes of ice, which he would take up to icehouses out in Seabright. And another one in the Atlantic Highlands area. So, I had to stand on this platform, and the fellow inside would take these ice cakes and put them through a scoring machine, which would score them into fifty and twenty-five pound ice cakes. ... The ice then would then come out of the little chute, out onto the platform, and I'd have to grab it with the tongs, swing it around, lift it up, and ... get it on the back of the truck while the truck driver would grab it and put it on the truck. These things would come out regularly, regularly, regularly. And his truck would handle, I guess, about fifty cakes. So that kept me busy in the summer time.

KP: That also sounds like quite a workout.

WB: Oh, yes! [Laughs]

KP: You mentioned going to the movies a lot. Do remember any war movies, in particular, growing up.

WB: ... I remember some of them. Can't remember the names too well. Sometimes names, when you get my age, why, names and things like that, start to slip. I remember All's Quite on the Western Front. Things like that. I know my wife and I went to the movies, in Boston, on December 7, 1941. We were on our way from the camp into Boston, stopped to have ... breakfast at this thing, and heard over the radio that the Japs had bombed Pearl Harbor. I said, "We can't do anything." So we went on into Boston and went to the movies, anyway.

KP: ... You didn't report initially that ...

WB: Well, no. We knew that we were still in Massachusetts and that was way out on the West. [Laughs] We were concerned, yes.

KP: Right. But you ... had the sense that this reporting and sitting around was ...

WB: The movie we saw was "Sergeant York."

KP: Really?

WB: Yes. [Laugh]

KP: I partly ask that because, what were your impressions from the movies and from other sources of what military life was like? Because you would end up spending a good part of your career as a professional officer.

WB: The movies, I don't think, gave me too much impression on what military life would be. In other words, the movies were just specific instances of people doing things or not doing things. Whereas in your actual experience, why, you're just living your life the way it should be lived. The way you think it should be lived, and doing what you think should be done right, or trying to obey orders and that type of thing. [Laughs]

KP: Looking back, particularly at your first year or two in the military, how good was ROTC in preparing you for military service?

WB: In a way, to get along with people, or how to handle, let's say, military types of situations. But the difference was, in those days, in '39, in the four years of ROTC all you did was your drill, was "squads right" and "squads left," and this type of thing. The old squad formation, with the old thirty-aught-six bolt action rifle. So when I reported for duty at Fort Wadsworth, Staten Island to Company F of the 18th Infantry they were involved in all the new formations, where you did not have any squad right formations. It was all "company right" or "company left." Your rifle was the new Garand M-1 rifle. So here you are starting all over again. That type of thing. And that's another thing that was ..., in that period, because I reported for duty in September of '39, and in that period, you might say, I had about September, October, and part of November, witnessing the old pre-war Army.

KP: I was gonna ask you about that ... .

WB: All right. Here's the example. My first day of duty I reported in to this company. The company commander was there in the orderly room. And we discussed ... a few things, got to know each other, and he said, "Well, let's go inspect the kitchen." So we went in and inspected the kitchen. And the mess sergeant, that time, already had a big meat sandwich laid out and a cup of coffee for us. So we had to eat that, and take care of that. And then he said, "Well, okay, let's go out and inspect the troops now." So you went out and there was about fifteen or twenty men out drilling, out of a company of a hundred-twenty/ a hundred-thirty. You'd look at that for a while and he'd say, "Okay, it's lunch time." So, okay, went out and got lunch and came back to the orderly room. And there was not a soul around. I didn't know what to do. Okay, here's a field manual. Started reading a field manual about an half an hour. Finally the company first sergeant poked his head in. He said, "My God, Lieutenant, what are you doing here in the afternoon?" [Laughter] That lasted until the middle of November when they packed the whole kit-and-kabootle of us, put us on a transport, and took it down to Charleston, South Carolina, took us by train over to Fort Benning, Georgia and said, "Now make a damned army out of it." And that was ... my short experience with the pre-World War II Army.

KP: Because one of the things people told me was, while the Army was not as bad as the Navy, the pre-war Army was very ritualized. For example, when you got to the base you were supposed to have a total number of cards, and you had a round of places where you're suppose to deliver your cards to the ...

WB: That's right.

KP: Even to the ... daughters of the officers, you know.

WB: Absolutely. [Laughs] That was part of a ritual. [Laughs] However, this lasted a year, I think, maybe, into '40.

KP: Right. When things heated up a lot of those rituals, but initially ...

WB: Initially, well, that was part of the Army life. You had formal occasions you'd have to go to. And I had my first set of dress blues, and I polished it all up, and some major and his wife had invited us to an affair at the officers club. So I got everything all spruced up, and cleaned up, and reported in. And was heading across the room towards the bar when the major's wife came up behind me and said, "Excuse me, Lieutenant." She took the price tag off the back of my coat. [Laughter] So that was still a carry-over of the formal type of Army. But as to a thing that amazes me, from what I experienced during that short period of time, what the Army was able to do within a short period of time, let's say, within a year of putting together the mass that was required and what was required of it from '41 on. And I think a lot of what was able to do that was, well, Roosevelt's program with the CCC, where you had a lot of reserve officers called to active duty to run these CCC camps, which were in a sense, quasi- military.

KP: Why do you think that was so important?

WB: Because it developed the feeling of being able to initiate a program, get it started, have it accomplish something, and have people available to do it. Which is essentially the same thing you had as soon as you got into a war status where everything was blossomed out. And I ran into some of those CCC camps during my first year in the Army, in Louisiana. Because I was ... stationed at ... Georgia at the time. But, ... things were expanding gradually. And we had to develop more maneuver territory in the Fort Benning area. So one of my jobs was to go out and visit everybody that owned a piece of property, to get them to sign an agreement to let the Army maneuver over their property. And I don't know whether I did such a good job down there at Benning. They said, "Well, okay. There's gonna be a big maneuver over in Louisiana. They need a crew over there to do the same thing. Go!" [Laughs]

KP: ... What was that like to get people's consent?

WB: Sometimes it was like pulling teeth. Other times it was no problem at all. Or sometimes you get just plain, flat resistance to it. And when you had flat resistance there wasn't much you could do about it. ... I only ran into three or four cases like that in Georgia. But what developed out of it I don't know. 'Cause last time I went back down to Georgia, after the war, ... we had then gotten maneuver rights which was now part of Fort Benning itself. The government had bought it. KP: The governement bought the people out?

WB: Yes. And in Louisiana there was no government installation there at all, at the time. This was in the '40s. And then they developed, afterwards, they developed a big post, Army installation, down there. Which, I guess, they had to do the same thing. As I say, I don't dare go back to Louisiana because, in 1940, here I was going around getting all these land owners to sign this petition allowing the Army to go on their property. And it was my name on there as a government for the witness. And they were still using the damn thing! [Laughs]