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Lowy, Harvey S.

Sandra Stewart Holyoak: This begins an interview with Harvey S. Lowy at Rutgers University on June 15, 1999. I'd like to begin by thanking you, Mr. Lowy, for coming up to the third floor here at Bishop House and I'll begin by asking you some questions about where you were born and when, and then you can tell me about your father and then your mother.

Harvey Lowy: Very good. I, Harvey Lowy, was born in Brooklyn, New York on July 30, 1927. The address was Pennsylvania Avenue which is in Brooklyn and, I think, it's near New Lots Avenue, which is a pretty well-known intersection. We moved, when I was about two years old to another section of Brooklyn called Hegeman Avenue up a street. Hegeman Ave. and that's where I mostly remember my early childhood years. Pennsylvania Avenue, I was really too small to remember what was going on, but I do remember one incident. On a summer's day, I can remember this, I must have been, well, it was before I was walking, I remember as a scanning around in the sidewalk, it was a big apartment building, in a little cartwheel, that the little infants use before they walked to get around. You know, they sit down and they move their legs and the wheels turn and go on the sidewalk, and this one friend of my father, his name is Felix, my sister remembered his name, she told me about that incident, and he was egging me on. He used to watch me go, and he used to say, "Go, Harvey, go." I was so fast that I was the fastest thing, I was a blur when I was going around that little sidewalk in Brooklyn. We moved to Newark, New Jersey and I was, just don't remember the date, but I was just about, maybe seven, or eight years old, and I remember the school, I don't remember the school I went to in New York, although, you know, it was just probably maybe two or three years and we moved to Dewey Street in Newark, New Jersey, which is part of the very well-known Weequahic section of Newark.

SH: Can you tell me a little bit about your father, was he a native New Yorker?

HL: No, my father was born in Poland, a small town near Krakow, Poland and he immigrated, to New York, through Ellis Island, right after his brother. Max Lowy came here first, about two years after that, my father came here and I never got the dates straight, but it must have been about 1910 or 1915.

SH: Do you know how old your father was at that time?

HL: When he came here, he was probably around twenty-one, early twenties, I imagine, maybe late teens, I'm not quite sure.

SH: Was there family already here in the States besides his brother?

HL: Just his brother, no. No one, just his brother, who came here, and they lived together in New York, in Brooklyn, where he met my mother, who was a Native American and they were married. The date I don't know.

SH: Had your father come over here as an apprentice, had he already learned a trade in Poland?

HL: No, he, as you probably know, the people that came over here as immigrants were mostly semi-educated. They completed some years of early elementary school, but very little formal education. He was amongst that group. He came here with no trade, or no education.

SH: Were there other siblings and family still left in Poland?

HL: Yes, yes. His father owned a little retail business in his small village near Krakow and he helped out there but he wanted to get away, apparently and also there was rumblings of religious persecution already before he came here and that's the main reason he went from Poland to here and he lived with his brother for awhile and then he went on his own…

SH: Did he have brothers and sisters still in Poland when he left?

HL: His father and mother were still living. As a matter-of-fact, I remember getting letters, seeing letters that he received from them. He only had one brother, so, there was no other siblings left in Poland. He had a cousin here, female cousin. I'm sorry, he did have a relative here, female cousin, her name was Wolf and we moved just about a block apart in Newark. We established this small residence in Newark, just about a block from his cousin. My father was a gentle soul but he had problems earning a living. He worked for various public agencies for a while and he learned the trade of an upholsterer. His brother started as an upholsterer so he taught my father that trade, upholstery. From there he switched to jewelry manufacturing and he went to work for various firms in New York and Newark. As a matter of fact, the reason we moved to Newark was to get a job that he was offered by a jewelry-manufacturing firm in Newark, and that was about the extent of his working capacities. During the Depression, which was a real horrific experience for most people, remember at that time, there was no welfare, there was no unemployment. There was something called a WPA [Works Progress Administration] and there were handouts, soup kitchens, you know, and during the Depression, he and his brother, and most of his people he knew, had very difficult time feeding their families, and I was brought up during the Depression, my sister and I both.

SH: Your mother was from New York?

HL: My mother was born in New York. Her maiden name was Bloome, May Bloome. She never worked, at that time very few women, you know worked. I think it was a kind of a, you'd be ashamed to admit that you worked, because that meant was nobody was taking care of you, you know, is providing to you, and the biggest compliment that a woman can get at that period of time, remember we're talking about 1920, 1915, was to be desired as a spouse. That was the main goal, the occupation of most young women.

SH: Did she have a large family in New York?

HL: Yes, she had six other sisters and one brother. I remember all of their names. I remember them very well. We were brought up in very close proximity to all of her six siblings she had. There were six sisters and one brother, and they all lived within commuting distance of each other, all in New York City. We used to visit them, they used to visit us, and I remember them very well. My aunts and uncles I remember them so clearly. I respected them, I call them Mr. and Mrs., you know, and I still have a very fond spot in my heart for all my uncles and aunts who I've been seeing so many years. They're wonderful people. They all worked very hard. They're all brought up to earn a profession, remember, provided for their families during the Depression and, again, I want to reiterate, that was no small matter. It was difficult in that period that these people went through, for a period of maybe, almost ten years.

SH: Did the families help support each other during that period?

HL: Yes, yes. They helped support each other. I remember, when we took in a cousin of mine whose family at that time couldn't even feed him. A cousin of mine stayed with us, and my sister also, when I became ill, I had scarlet fever, I was about maybe four years old, in New York. They sent my sister to live, a number of months with one of my aunts. So they all were very helpful to each other. They support each other and it was a period of time that I think has never been duplicated; this close proximity and closeness. We visited them at least once a week, you know, and my cousins and I, we're all so close.

SH: Were your grandparents still living then, your mother's father?

HL: Well, don't forget, my father's parents had never left Poland, and they disappeared, you know, during the war. Nobody knows what happened to them.

SH: World War I?

HL: World War II. World War I, apparently, they came through, because I remember letters that were sent to my father. My mother's grandparents were still living but just, they died when I was young. I was, I even, I don't remember. I remember that we saw them but I don't remember. So that was it. I never even saw any of my four grandparents.

SH: Was your sister older or younger?

HL: My sister is six years older. She just came through a difficult artery transplant because she had difficulty in circulation in her leg and what they did was transplant an artificial vein into her leg and she's recovering now. She had that done about two months ago. She's a widow and my sister's name is Dorothy Lowy Rubenstein. Her husband died in 1974 when he was fifty-five years old, of a heart attack. I remembered my sister calling me and saying "Harve, Milton just died." I couldn't believe it. I say, "How did it happen?" She says, "Well, he was lying in bed and I heard a moaning and I looked at him and he was turning color and I couldn't get him up, I couldn't wake him. But he was still apparently unconscious but still here," and she called her doctor, her doctor from the hospital. She called the hospital, they referred her to somebody, spoke to her and said, "Get in touch with your husband's physician," and she said, "He doesn't have a physician, he was never sick." I remember that incident. He was never sick. He never had a physician, he was never sick. And he passed away from a massive heart attack at fifty-five. So she's been a widow since 1974, and she lives in Rossmore, Jamesburg, there is a group of retirement communities Rossmore, there was a few others, but I can't remember them, but there's about five or six of them in close proximity, all around that same area.

SH: Were you and your sister close?

HL: Yes, very, very close. We're still close. I'm her only, you know, close relative and she's mine, and most of my, again, all my uncles and aunts are deceased I only have one male cousin remaining. I have about three female cousins of which, my male cousin is fairly close, he lives in Toms River and my two female cousins, one lives in New Jersey, one lives in Florida, but that's all I have left.

SH: As a young man growing up and the letters that you remember coming from Poland, from your father's family, did you remember being aware of what was going on in Europe as a young man or …

HL: Certainly not during World War I because I wasn't born yet, but World War II, yes. I do remember there were problems, again, the letters stopped. He was getting the letters the early part of the war and before the war and the letters from my grandfather to my father were mostly appeals for assistance and they were probably having a tough time out there because of the persecution and my father helped in a small way, but he couldn't help because he was barely was able to provide for my sister and I and my mother. And letters just stopped and he never knows what happened to them. They just disappeared.

SH: When you had moved to the Weequahic part of Newark…

HL: Weequahic. You never heard of Weequahic, incidentally? It's a very well known, you know, section. That's where many of the current professional people were brought up and most of them went the Weequahic High School, as a matter-of-fact. That was the fertile learning grounds of most of this generation's premier physicians, dentists, lawyers and we have probably the most well known graduate of Weequahic High School, about five years after I graduated, five or six years, is Philip Roth. He graduated from there and most of his novels, incidentally, are based in his experiences in the Weequahic section, brought up maybe a couple of blocks from were I lived. This was a very famous section. This was the most homogenous community you ever could imagine. He wrote about that, that Philip Roth. It was so homogenous, that I think, well, in my book that I got in my high school, fiftieth high school reunion, going through the list of names that were listed there, there was not one non-Jewish name. I think the school was about ninety-seven percent Jewish, maybe three percent and all white. There was one black. His father was a custodian for an apartment over there, about a block from where I lived, and I was a friend of his, incidentally. He was the only black in the whole Weequahic High School, in the four years, in the four grades. I remember that.

SH: Was your family active in the temple?

HL: No. We used to, my father was not active, but we used to attend services occasionally, not too often.

SH: Did you keep a kosher house?

HL: No. No. Some of my aunts did. We did not. My sister is more of a practicing Jew than I am. I don't practice at all. I do attend one religious service during the Yon Kippur day but that's it. My sister, as a matter-of-fact, her son-in-law is the president of the temple where they live.

SH: What was the name of the elementary school that you went to?

HL: Elementary school was Bragaw Avenue School. It was about four blocks from where I lived and I remember when I first went to school, my mother took me there, I must have been maybe seven or eight years old. I think it was the third grade, second, or third grade, I remember and she took me there and she showed me how to get home, you know, and when school is out, I got lost. I got lost. It took me maybe three hours to get home and, finally, somebody directed me and took me home, as a matter-of-fact. Couldn't find my way home. Bragaw Avenue School was also a famous, one of the best-known elementary schools in Newark, also, and I attended a junior high school for one year, Hawthorne Avenue Junior High School, and then I went to Weequahic.

SH: Did you have a choice of which high school you went to?

HL: No. No. It was just according to, you know, where you lived and what residence determines which school you went to. I think there were five high schools in Newark. It was, some of the names have been changed, Baringer, South-Side, those two names have been changed. Southside, Westside, Weequahic and one or two others. I went to summer school in Southside. There were two graduating classes at that time. There was January and June, two graduating classes. Now I was scheduled to graduate in January of 1945, that was my original class, January '45. At that time, the war was on, you know, World War II and I said to myself, "If I graduate in January, to go to college," I got deferment when I was going to college," I would have to wait six months before the semester started in Rutgers" so I said, well, I inquired and they told me how to speed up my graduating class and I did it in three and a half years by going to summer school, Southside Summer School for one summer, and I graduated with the Class of June '44 and I was, this was, I was between '44-'45, so I wasn't in the '45 yearbook, and I wasn't in the '44 yearbook, but I go to both reunions. I attended the fiftieth reunion of both classes and I just got down with my fifty-fifth reunion, with the Class of '44 and I'm going to go to the fifty-fifth reunion of Class of '45, next year.

SH: What were your interests as a young man in high school and grade school?

HL: Two interests, girls and sports, and that's it. I'm strictly limited to that. I played baseball in high school and I played baseball for Rutgers and as a matter-of-fact, my most famous claim to fame was that I appeared, I didn't pitch, but I appeared in a game with Ralph Branca . Is Ralph Branca familiar to you?

SH: Well, tell us about him.

HL: He became a professional baseball pitcher. He pitched for NYU. He played at NYU, and with no stadium, it was, just don't know where it was, it was an open field. Everybody would come in and watch it with no stadium and no admission, or anything, and I didn't know who he was, but when I saw him pitch, I really got to investigate and found out that he was the best pitcher on the staff and he was fantastic and he was signed by the Brooklyn Dodgers, and this was the fellow who pitched in the World Series, who gave up that homerun to Bobby Thompson, that was, Ralph Branca.

SH: What position did you play on the baseball team?

HL: I was a pitcher.

SH: Why did you pick Rutgers to go to school?

HL: Well, they picked me. I was looking around, you know, I had no money and I couldn't afford tuition, this is before I was drafted. After that when I was discharged, I got the GI Bill, I took advantage of the GI Bill. Incidentally, I want to talk about the GI Bill, because that helped me along with many of my peers, to establish ourselves. This was the biggest, I think, event in the Twentieth Century for the United States of America, was the GI Bill of Rights, for veterans. I took a test, I remember taking an entrance test for Rutgers, and I didn't know whether I could afford the tuition. The tuition at that time, I think, was about $500.00 a year. I think it was even less than that. I don't remember. It was around $500.00 a year. This is September '44, graduated Class of '48. Incidentally, I went to the army, I was drafted, and I spent one full year in the army, and I got out, I graduated with my original class because I went to summer school. So I went to high school three and a half years, and went to college for three years, you know, and I think I was just twenty when I went to Columbia for one year of graduate school. Okay, so they offered me a, what is called an 1864 State Scholarship. Are you familiar with that? It's not the other, there's a State Scholarship that's given, I think to more applicants and I think it provides more than the 1864 scholarship. But they offered me that, which was, I think, tuition free, so I went. I was very happy to receive it.

SH: Was there any requirements? Did you have to keep a certain grade point average?

HL: Yes, well, the grade point average was, you know, it was certainly known, but it was based upon the score of the entrance test. I remember taking the entrance test in this building, right next to Winants Hall. I think it was that building next to Winants Hall? I don't remember, there was a big auditorium there, I remember taking the test there and they awarded me the scholarship based on pat of my score in the test and they knew Weequahic, certainly. Rutgers is a local school at that time. Incidentally, it was men. It was a men's college. They knew Weequahic very well. They prefer and they want Weequahic graduates. So I enrolled in Rutgers, September 1944.

SH: What was it like on campus? You were barely eighteen?

HL: I was just barely seventeen, graduated when I was twenty, and it was a different experience, you know, I couldn't cope with the freedom, with the independence that I had, because Weequahic High School was very structured. You have a certain class and you had to be there and, you know, if you went to Weequahic at that time, nobody was suspended or lost time there, because everybody was there to work. It was just amazing, again, that was such a homogenous community, that Weequahic section, during the time I was brought up there. Certainly ok while I went through that experience, because it was once-in-a-lifetime experience. I don't know of any other district town that was so homogenous and so structured and so, you know, produced a work ethic like the Weequahic section at that time.

SH: You wind up being a guidance counselor in high school, but what would you say, looking back now, at the teachers, what was that ethic that they, some how were able to instill, that work ethic?

HL: Well, the administration structured it so that you don't find that today, certainly. I mean, I taught, I was a math teacher for seven years, eighteen years as a guidance counselor, and certainly, it was not reproduced in my school and I don't know of any other school that had this kind of requirement. This was a work; study ethic that was expected of students and the students responded one hundred percent. When I go to my reunions, I meet more famous professionals than I think any other period would have. They were a very successful generation, and all because of the work ethic. Now the other high schools in Newark had a similar work ethic, but not as rigid and as effective as Weequahic High School. This was, I think, somebody should go into that and, you know, look at that and determine how they did it, and whether it can be reproduced today. Because, again, I was a product of that, when I came to Rutgers, I was far more advanced than my peers were coming from other high schools. Most of them came from Jersey incidentally, very few out of state. It was a very local school. It was not even a state college, it was a land grant college at that time.

SH: Now as a young man in high school, did you work in the summers, or what did you do?

HL: Yes, now, incidentally, I was a guidance counselor but I can enumerate probably twenty-five other jobs, careers, anything else you want to mention, including my one year in the army. For example, during my one year in the army, I was a radio actor for six months, in Fort Bliss, Texas. In Fort Ord, California, I had become a radio actor, I applied for it and they gave me the job. I auditioned and I got it. I started out as a supporting radio actor and I took the lead for a while and I still have articles that were written, one article is written by me. I was also a reporter for the newspaper, for the post newspaper, and I wrote up the story about a well-known radio program that we broadcast to everyone but particularly to the GIs, you know, the soldiers based in that area. It was a local station. I was a reporter, a radio actor, I was in finance, I worked in the finance office when they found out I had two years in Rutgers under my belt when I was drafted and I want to mention a joke, too. Everybody says to me, "Were you drafted, or, did you enlist, in World War II?" I says, "Well, let me tell you a story. I fought and fought and fought and still they took me." I got three deferments before my deferment period ran out and they said, "No, you got to go in," and I went. I couldn't get out anymore.

SH: In high school, where did you work? What were the summer jobs?

HL: High school, okay. I worked for a lawyer. I delivered mail for him and worked in his office. I changed to another lawyer who paid me more money. I worked for a clothing store in Halsey Street in Newark. I took a bus to get there from Dewey Street and the name of the store, it was quite a well-known store. It was a small store, (Murray Wachsman) but it was well-known. It was right across from the theater, the Branford Theater in Newark and I worked there after school and during the summer for about two years and then I worked in an ice house. I found I can get more money working in ice house and I lied about my age and they didn't even check my credentials and they gave me a job working in the ice house, pulling up, at that time, we pulled up the ice from a chemical in a vast vat of chemical. I had to work in that and take it up with an electro machine we lifted up these ice cakes from the vat of chemicals and put them over into a place where they stayed in a cold environment till they were sold. I used to do that after school, and that was about it. And then I …

SH: Talk about going to summer school, did you work the summer before you came to Rutgers, or did you go to school?

HL: That was the summer school I went to enable me to graduate, to get a, not a college curriculum, I graduated with a non-college curriculum because I didn't have enough credits for college but I did graduate and Rutgers accepted me in the Class of, September, '44. So I spent the last summer in high school going to summer school, and I graduated from summer school.

SH: Did you, when you came to Rutgers, did you know what you wanted to major in?

HL: No. No. Absolutely not. I was immature. I was really immature I knew nothing about it and I had no guidance. I wish I had somebody, you know, who was able to give me some advice. My father certainly couldn't do that. So I drifted and took mostly business courses. I had some idea that maybe, you know, I was going to the business area, business world and so I mostly stayed within the business curriculum.

SH: Where did you stay when you came on campus in September?

HL: In the first year, I was in Winants Hall. Yeah, they gave me a room, I shared a room with a fellow, I remember his name, and it was a connecting room to two other first year students and we were up, I think, on the third floor of Winants Hall,

SH: Do you remember their names?

HL: First year, Sandor, yeah, his last name was Sandor I don't know what happened to him. and I met him in the army, incidentally. We met in San Francisco. He was in the army. We got together in San Francisco. After I met him, I don't know what happened. Never got in touch with him again. We roomed with another fellow, Smith, I remember seeing his obituary, maybe fifteen years ago. Herb Smith, I think his name was. So that was the first year. The second year, I joined the Sigma Alpha Mu fraternity and I don't know whether you know it or not, but we had a very famous tragedy that happened, I think in 1945. Sigma Alpha Mu was, I don't know the name of the street, it was near, you know, the river, the last street next to the river. George Street yeah and it was on the corner, I remember. I don't know if it's still there. I lived there and I joined the fraternity, Sigma Alpha Mu, that's, incidentally, where Klion also was a member. He was same year I was, we both joined at the same time, Barton Klion and I lived there for most of the year, and I think it was toward the later part of the spring semester. At the end of my first year living there, this is my second year, I wasn't in the fraternity at that time. It was during a weekend. We had like a party, we used to have parties all weekends and we're not supposed to invite females, so they did, and, apparently, there was drinking, carousing. I don't know the reason, but the fireplace, one of the logs set fire to the living room and the whole building was destroyed and one of our brothers lost his life and one of the women lost her life. I think there were two people killed in that fire. It made the front page of New York Times . I still got the article. I got it in the scrap book. So, there was no fraternity house, so I had to go back to my family in Newark and I commuted for my last year, after I was drafted in the army, and I came back. That was the year I was drafted and I came back and then I commuted for my last year from Newark to the campus. So I went through two different experiences.

SH: Had you held any offices in your fraternity at all?

HL: No. No. I wasn't interested. Incidentally, every year, I mentioned the things I used to do. Well, beginning with my junior year in high school and through all the summers except the last summer, one summer I went to Rutgers, and one summer, the last summer in high school, but for five summers I was a waiter in the Catskill Mountains, in New York and that's another experience. That was also a homogenous grouping that I never saw before and probably never experienced in my whole life.

SH: How did you get that job?

HL: I applied for it. I saw that they were looking for people, this was before the end of the war, so there was a shortage of male workers and I saw they were looking for people willing to work in the Catskill Mountains, and they were looking for busboys and waiters. I didn't have any experience, so I decided to, you know, to rough it and went to New York, got the interview and they asked me what I wanted to do I says, "I prefer to become a waiter and they said," Do you have any experience and I says," Off and on. Well, I was very impressive, I don't know, but they gave me the job as a waiter without any experience. Edgewood Inn, in Livingston Manor, New York. The hotel is no longer there. After that I worked in four other hotels during the summer as a waiter and one summer as a busboy. Summer as a busboy, it was the biggest hotel I ever worked in, but it was an experience there, too, and I met a lot of girls, more girls as a busboy than as a waiter, and I was interested in them. I think it was my third year in Rutgers, I saw an ad in the paper that they wanted extras for a stage play that originally appeared in Broadway but was going on the road and the first stop was Newark and this was downtown Newark. It's called Symphony Hall now, but it used to be called, it was at theater on Broad Street in Newark and they asked for extras to appear in a stage production called Janie and I went down and there were about a 100 guys, looking for about six jobs as extras, as soldiers, incidentally. This is a story about a soldier living with this young girl in New York and they lined us up, a 100 guys, line us up and they picked six guys out and I was one of the six guys. So I worked there for two weeks every night and we had two matinees, I think and I got a tremendous amount of pay. I think they paid me ten dollars a performance, which was at that time was a lot of money. Boy, I was very glad to get that. So I didn't have any speaking parts, incidentally, just appeared on the stage.

SH: Now, when you were at Rutgers, you were part of the ROTC.

HL: Yes. Yes. This was a requirement; you can't get out of it. The first two years required ROTC. Well, let me tell you a story about that. I got my draft notice and…

SH: When did you get your draft notice, do you remember?

HL: This was my second year here, so it was I think, '45 or '46, I think it was '45, I got a deferment for awhile, but I couldn't get, you know, they finally got me. I got about four deferments before that so and I went to the ROTC commandant and they had a advanced ROTC where, if you continue two years of that, you were deferred from active service till you've completed your second year then you were given a commission as second lieutenant, right off the bat. Well, he looked at me and he looked at my resume and looked at my application and you know, my credentials and he said, "Well, you fit the bill, but you're kind of young." I was, you know, I think seventeen, maybe eighteen. He says, "You're kind of young, I'm sorry, I can't give you an advanced placement." Well, without the advanced ROTC, I had no other way of getting out of service so I spent one year as a buck private, get all these jobs, you know, and never went overseas. Spent most of my time in Mexico, because I was in Fort Bliss, Texas and this was at the end of the war and we were given passes mostly everyday, so I went right across the border. I went to Juarez, Mexico. I spent about six months until finally we were, well, I was on a radio program, so I was an actor then, and, finally, we were switched to Fort Ord, California, which I picked up there, but I liked Juarez. At that time, it was real, I never saw anything like that when I was a kid.

SH: Let's go back a little bit. You were no longer able to get a deferment; maybe we should even go back farther to where you were playing baseball for Rutgers as a freshman, then as sophomore?

HL: Well, as a sophomore, '45, I think it was. You see, I played one year but then with the war started and they discontinued baseball, so I didn't play for one or two years in Rutgers. But I played for just one year in Rutgers and, again, I remember that Ralph Branca .

SH: Now did you have to attend mandatory chapel also?

HL: Yes, we did. As a matter-of-fact, we were asked to attend chapel services and I remember going there. I don't know if it's on a regular basis or, I remember going to the services.

SH: Do you remember any of the speakers or

HL: No. There was one gentleman, I think, Abernathy. Does his name sound familiar, Abernathy? I remember his name. He was connected with the religious services. As a matter-of-fact I don't even remember any of the people that taught here except for one German professor, his name escapes me now, but I'll recognize it if I heard it (Holzmann). He had a mustache and

SH: Did you have a favorite professor or

HL: No. No. I was not a really interested student, you know.

SH: Where were you inducted, where did you report?

HL: Yeah, I reported to Newark. I was sworn in in Newark in Broad St., Newark and then I was sent to Fort Dix and from there we took a troop train to Fort Bliss, Texas. It took us four days to get there. Four days in a troop train to get to Fort Bliss, Texas where we had our basic training.

SH: What did you do for entertainment for those four days?

HL: Oh, boy. I remember that train ride. Oh, I couldn't stand it. I was cooped up in that car. We used to be able to go out when the train stopped, you know, we go out, we get our exercises and we were cooped up for four days in getting to Fort Bliss, and then from there, we went to Fort Ord, California, on another troop train. That was no bargain either. When I was discharged from Fort Ord, California and I decided to come home and I heard that you can get a ride on an Air Force plane, that time they had the Army Air Force. All you had to do was report to the nearest airport, the Army base airport, and ask if anybody was going East, you know, and they took me in three separate trips from California back to Newark on an Army plane.

SH: You didn't have to do the troop train again.

HL: No. No. I spent a week in San Diego when I was discharged. I went from San Francisco to San Diego and I visited Tijuana. It was right across from San Diego. There was a big naval base there somewhere.

SH: Now, when you were in Fort Bliss and you reported as a private, I assume, what were you training for, what were you doing there?

HL: Well, first, we had basic training. I don't recall what period of time we were in basic training. After that, it was a matter of being assigned to post duty. They assigned me, well, I did KP, all the guys did KP. Then they assigned me to garbage detail and I was working that, this was after basic training. My first job was getting the garbage and disposing the garbage in a big open ditch and me and the driver, in one of the truck, would picked up the garbage and I was in back of the garbage, he was driving and he said, "I got a good way of disposing of the garbage. Instead of stopping and getting all the garbage out by shoveling it, I'm going to back up the truck at about thirty miles an hour, slam on the brakes right before the cliff and all the garbage will slide out. Just get out of the way." So I did that. Well, he did it, and I says, "I don't want to go on the garbage detail anymore." So I went to the finance officer and I said to the commander of the finance office, "I was taking business courses in Rutgers, you got a job for me?" He said, "Yeah, we can use you." So he gave me a job in the finance office, but it gets kind of boring there and I decided I didn't want that anymore and I went to the post dispensary and I asked for a job there and they gave me a job interviewing the soldier patients. …

--------------------------------------END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE-------------------------------------

HL: I was there for a period of time until I saw that they were looking for people to audition for this new radio program they were starting and I applied for that and I was chosen, given a supporting role for awhile and then took the lead.

SH: What were you performing?

HL: This was a show that was put on for the entertainment of the local area and most of the base and they got professional scripts. I remember getting Fred Allen scripts, you know, Fred Allen, Jack Benny scripts. We used to get those scripts and put on dramas and comedy performances for a full hour, think it was a half hour, sorry, half hour and we used to have a band, the army band playing there and this went on once a week and I remember getting comments about my performance from people who heard me, they were listening to the program, that sounds pretty good. As a matter-of-fact, I remember the gentleman, Joe (Giganti?) was the guy in charge, he was the producer, the guy directly in charge of the program, Joe Giganti, and we moved to California. We continued in California and then I was discharged and they asked me if I was going to continue this in New York, because he knew I lived in Newark, and I said, "No, I don't think so." He says, "Well, you have some talent, why don't you try going into that?" Incidentally, on that same program, I have articles about that in my scrapbook. We have pictures of the program and the performers that entertained. The performer who was the star was a member of a New York radio program before he was drafted, also, and I remember him. His name escapes me. But I got to know the performers, there are about six or seven soldiers and about three civilian women on that program and we used to rehearse in one of the women's house, which I remember, in Carmel, California, which is near San Francisco. I enjoyed that, you know, but you know, I was discharged and this was the demobilization just after the war and all the draftees that were drafted were discharged. I was not a combat veteran. I was a World War II veteran, but not a combat veteran.

SH: Did you have any interaction with combat veterans?

HL: No, because all of our people were drafted, and mostly stuck together. The people that were drafted as civilians went with me to Fort Dix and then to Fort Bliss and then to Fort Ord. So we were all mostly, you know, together during that period. I never knew any of the people that were, had an experience in combat.

SH: Was there any opportunity for schooling or anything while you were there?

HL: No. I was only there for one year. They discharged me then and, incidentally, I'll tell you, to finish the story of the ROTC. I came back to Rutgers and the commandant when I was discharged came back as a veteran now. They have a GI Bill, he came knocking at my door and asked me to join the Advanced Program. I said, "No, I'm not interested now." I said, "I'm not interested anymore, I don't want to be a career soldier." I spent my year in the army and I took advantage of the GI Bill. I came back, I got the GI Bill and they gave me two years. They gave you twice as much study time as the time you served in service. So I served one year, I got two years of schooling credit. The last year I used for Rutgers and I had one more year, and I said to myself, "I might as well take advantage of it." At that time, it was GI Bill was different with what it is now. You are able to go to any school that accepted you and the GI Bill paid for your entire tuition. So I looked around and found the best school that I can go to, regardless of tuition, which was Columbia in New York, and they accepted me. I graduated from a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration and they accepted me into the Master's program in business at Columbia and I was amazed that they paid the entire tuition. At that time, it was about $3,000.00 a year at Columbia that was a tremendous amount of money. I went there in 1948. Got my Masters in '49, in business. They paid for all your tuition and any expenses, books, carte blanche , anything you needed was, you know, given to you by the GI Bill and you got a subsistence, a monthly subsistence. Incidentally, I joined the 52/20 Club. I don't know whether you know that. 52/20 Club was given to World War II veterans who were discharged. They got twenty dollars a week for fifty-two weeks, that's the 52/20 Club, until they were able to become employed. This was part of the GI Bill also, but the GI Bill was a tremendous asset to the United States of America. The first time, it was a revolution that all these people, who never would go to college, went to college because of the GI Bill, and then I bought my house through the GI Bill, also. They guaranteed it. They guaranteed the loan. GI Bill guaranteed the loan which was a big provision at that time because, you know, you were just starting to work. I just got married and had started to work and you didn't have a down payment, the GI Bill said that you can buy a house, with no down payment and the government would guarantee the loan to a mortgage company. So any mortgage company would give you a mortgage. It was tough getting mortgage. So that was a big, tremendous, tremendous asset to this country. It made a whole generation of professional people and started this industrial revolution that took place since that time and is still going on.

SH: Can you talk about the differences that you saw in the Rutgers you came in as a seventeen year old and the Rutgers you came back?

HL: Yes, when I came back, I didn't recognize it at all, they were all new Quonset huts here. They built, you know, the fastest way possible in handling the influx of veterans, you know. Well, the veterans started coming in while I was here. When I came back, that was the big influx and it was a tremendous. You know, expansion of all the facilities, plus the students, and so it was night and day. When I came here in 1944, it was a small local school. Didn't have Piscataway. It was all around here, right in Rutgers here, right on College Avenue, right up and down College Ave. I remember going to the gym, the gym was up at the place here, and, I remember, they used to transport us to the baseball field, so it was not on campus. But I think it was, probably it was near Johnson's Park, maybe. Anyway, it was a tremendous difference, certainly. I mean, you were competing with veterans now, older veterans. I was still young. Some of these students were in there thirties, who were going here, and I was just barely twenty.

SH: Do you remember any incidents between the younger students and the returning veterans?

HL: When I got my acceptance to Rutgers, I was a civilian and I paid my own tuition. I envied the people I saw just a few veterans were here at that time, 1944, and I envied them because they were getting, you know, subsistence. They were getting allowances for books and tuition and to me it was just like going to a party. By gad, I could afford the tuition, at the beginning. Well, I had this States Scholarship, it was tuition free, but I had to pay for my books, you see,and pay for any other expenses.

SH: Did you work that first year you were here on campus at all?

HL: No, not while I was here on campus. In the summers I worked but not after school, no. I was playing sports at that time and having no time, but I worked in the summers, every summer.

SH: Did you date any of the women at NJC the first few years that you were here?

HL: A couple of dates, I remember. I had two or three but no more than that.

SH: Did you to the ROTC ball?

HL: No. I wasn't dancing much at that time. I started dancing when I came out of the army. So I think, no, I didn't go to the ROTC ball.

SH: Were you involved with the Targum or any other activities on campus?

HL: The Targum , I remember. No, I was not in that, I was not participating in the activities of the Targum but I remember the Targum very well, yes. I used to read it. But it was mostly a spartan kind of a campus, you know. Winants Hall was an old building. The furniture was, I remember my bed, it was so old, one time it just fell down. So it was a kind of spartan existence here for the first year, anyway.

SH: Did you have to wear a dink your freshman year at all?

HL: No. I don't remember that.

SH: Was there any initiation into your fraternity?

HL: Yes, there was. We had to do something, some kind of a getting, yeah, I had to go to the University of Pennsylvania, I remember, I had to go on my own, I had to hitch-hike there and I had to bring back something that was required and that was the initiation at the Sigma Alpha Mu, which is still here, I understand. But this fire that we had, was a traumatic experience.

SH: With your last year here, were you like the returning vets that you'd seen in '44, very dedicated, in a hurry?

HL: Yeah, these veterans now while we're here don't know how to fool around not like the people I met when I first came here. You know, there was a lot of partying, particularly the fraternities, but these veterans were here to study and provide the basis for their working years and they did it. They did it beautifully, and the results are still being shown here. These guys they really changed the whole working effort in this country at that time.

SH: When you went to Columbia, were you living on campus in New York or

HL: No. I commuted from Newark. I commuted by train, which was up in Manhattan, but the upper part of Manhattan, I remember going there and I take the subway. I took the train into New York station and took the subway to Columbia.

SH: What did your parents think of this, because you had said

HL: Well, I was the only member of my extended family, cousins, aunts, uncles and my sister, nobody went to college, nobody, I was the first one to go to college and even after that, nobody went. So they were kind of surprised that I wanted to go and I do regret, there was one thing I regret, I wanted to get into the pre-med program instead of the business program, but people I talked to, I knew one doctor, and I talked to him about it and he says, "Forget it, you wouldn't be able to get into medical school." There was a bias, at that time. It was very strict bias. There was a quota and he says, "Forget it, you would not be able to get in." As a matter-of-fact, I know three people that graduated with me from high school and one person from college, all Jewish people, Jewish fellows that were not accepted to any American medical school. All went overseas. My best friend went to Italy, had to learn the Italian language, and gradually, had his MD from University of Bologna in Italy. One guy went to Mexico.

SH: You were talking about doing pre-med, was it when you returned from the war that '44?

HL: No. This was before, when I was a freshman. As a matter-of-fact I took a couple of science, I remember taking biology and I knew I had to get through the science classes, you know, and I wasn't a good student. I was not really a good student and got through it but it wasn't, you know, excellent, anywhere near it. I didn't excel by being a student and I tried to get an A in biology, because I really needed an A, I got a B, and even with a B, I knew my chances of getting into medical school, as a Jewish young man, to get into medical school, you had to have all A's, and again, each medical school took maybe one or two, you know, in a class. Very strict quota, during those years. It's different now. As a matter-of-fact, I understand that some of the medical schools prefer Jewish applicants; they know they're getting the best.

SH: Was that the only incident you were aware of, of anti-Semitism?

SH: Yes, yes. As a matter-of-fact, I never met that in any of my years in the army, in work, in college, except for that quota getting to medical schools. The only incident that I can remember that had any experience of religious affiliation never had any other. In the army, never had anything like that. In my work experience, and never met anything about that all, except for that one and so I was discouraged from getting to medical school. I'm sorry I did, because persistence would have paid off. I would eventually get into that. I was very persistent. I was not a good student, but persistence made up for lack of ability.

SH: When you went to Columbia, you said you were in business administration, you received your Masters degree, what did you plan to do with your life from then on? Did you have a plan or…

HL: No, not really. I wanted a, I thought that, you know, "doing well" is to go into business and so I went to business administration and business program for one year in Columbia, I had a two year program, but they, now I don't think they have a one year program. At that time they had a one year and two year program. I only had one year left of my GI Bill so I went for the one year program and I graduated, you know, in one year, I got my masters and then was hired as a sales, in sales for a company, a clothing manufacturer in New York City. The name of the company, strangely enough is Standard Oil Clothing Company, no relation to the old Standard Oil which is now Exxon, and I worked there as sales and sales manager for nine years, from 1949 until 1958, and I was so successful, that the firm went bankrupt, and I had to decide, to make a big decision, at that time, whether to go into another business, and since then I started my own business by that time, too. While working for this guy, for this clothing manufacturing, I spent most of my time around Herald Square in New York where I visited the buyers of department stores and visit the buying offices trying to sell his clothing line. At that time, I got the idea, plastics was just coming up. I decided to start my own raincoat plastic company and I started it, and I rented a loft, while I was still working, you know, and rented a loft and contracted out the vinyl sheeting to be made into plastic raincoats. This was the cheapest raincoat you can buy. At that time, I think, they were two or three dollars you can get a raincoat, plastic raincoat, and this was a big thing at that time. Plastics were new, you know. Anything with plastic was able to sell. Well, I was successful, I got a number of stores that buy it and I remember one chain wanted to feature it, but the problem was in production. I was alone. I started this business alone. I wanted to contract out the manufacturing rather than, you know, invest in starting machines to work on it. It was mostly sewing machines that were doing it. So I got a contractor to work for me, but being small, I couldn't get any kind of production confidence and I came to a decision that this could not continue because the sales were there, but the production was not there. This guy, was, you know, very, very unreliable. So I gave that up, and the big decision I had to make, when this guy went out, 1958, was to continue in business, to work for somebody else, go into my own business, or look around for something that will provide me with what I lacked at that time, which was security and a pension plan. I was very interested in pension, because at that time, very few firms gave their employees pensions and I said to myself, "Well, when I get to be the age where I am now, I want pension." So I looked around, I said, a couple of my friends went into teaching and they said, "Why don't you look at that?" So I went back to school, I went to Seton Hall, got my teaching certificate.

SH: And how long did that take?

HL: That took, part time, during one summer and when I got my teaching job as a math teacher in New Brunswick Junior High School as an eighth and ninth grade math teacher. I was a provisional teacher. I didn't have my full certification. I was able to get my job because I went for provisional certification. The firm went bankrupt around April and May of 1958 and I went for one summer, that summer, I went to summer school, Seton Hall, and continued it after school when I started teaching, in September 1958, and went back and got my teaching certificate and got my Masters later on. I received counseling and I was able to get my guidance office. I was given an offer going to administration but I was not an administration type. I didn't like the overtime you had to spend. I didn't like, you know, the responsibility of answering parents and the board, so I looked around for another area and I found guidance was just up my alley, because in guidance, I was able to continue, I started another business by that time. I started the business, which sold to mostly drug stores, on consignment, costume jewelry which they're able to get from me and I still continue, as a matter-of-fact, that's been going on for almost fifty years now. It was big at one time, but I'm mostly retired now, so I'm winding down, and I was able to start a business which is very lucrative and it can then provided me with security for years and I did it after school, where I was at and on Saturdays after school. It was quite successful. At that time, there was no place else for women to buy costume jewelry, except if they went to a certain store. There was no television sale in those days, so it was quite successful, and I started that in 1957. I think it was one year before I finally left because I knew he was going out, so looked around to do something of my own. So I started this business in 1957, no, before that, I was married in '52, I think I started in '54, and I still have nine stores left. At one time, I had about 200 stores that I sold to. Didn't sell but they bought it on a consignment and if they sold, they split, they share the sales price with me. They will get fifty percent, I will get fifty percent. It was quite lucrative. So I did that, too.

SH: When did you meet Mrs. Lowy? How did you meet Mrs. Lowy?

HL: Yes, we met in my one year, at Columbia, she never went to college, but I met her through a friend of mine and I saw her and I was immediately struck by her appearance and that was it.

SH: Was she a student at Columbia?

HL: No. No. She never went to college. She just barely got through high school. As a matter-of-fact, she graduated the same year I did, but, from Irvington High School, which is the very next neighboring district to Newark. It's a small district, right next to Newark. We graduated the same year, but we didn't know each other. We met when I was going on my first year, in my early year in Columbia.

SH: How did you meet her?

HL: Through a friend of mine, and can I tell you a story. The fiftieth reunion of the Class of 1944, which I went to five years ago, her reunion took place in exact same night in Union. I was in Parsippany and in this Birchwood Manor. She was in Union that had the Irvington High School class reunion, fiftieth reunion, the same night at exactly the same time. I made both of them. I left early from Parsippany, drove down Route 280, got to Union and got in at the, right at the end of dessert. People just about ready to leave, you know. But we met some of the people she knew and I told her I was coming, late. So I made both reunions, which I think was unprecedented. Nobody ever went to two reunions in one night.

SH: Mrs. Lowy, was she working when you met her?

HL: Yes, she worked for a chemical company as a secretary. Then she went to work for Rhone-Poulenc. Ever hear of Rhone-Poulenc? One of the biggest chemical companies in the world, as a matter-of-fact. It used to be called Rhodia. Rhodia was the local company, it was in New Brunswick at that time and she worked there after we got married. Incidentally, I got to tell you this, too. We had three children, two of them survived. The youngest boy that I have was born 1966, in 1971, he died. He contracted a very rare blood disease called (Aplastic?) anemia, nobody had heard of that. I never heard of that before they told me. We couldn't get it diagnosed locally. I had to go to Boston. We went to Boston, the Wheeler Medical Center. A friend of mine suggested I call this one doctor, he had some experiences trying to cure blood diseases, he was a blood, pediatric hematologist, and he was the head of the medical school, the head of that department, in, this was Tufts University and was also the head of the department in Boston (Floating?) Hospital for Children. We took him there and we were there for three months. I couldn't save him. I tried everything. They took two bone marrow transplants from me. I donated two bone marrow transplants to save his life and that was unsuccessful. He never was sick, four and one half years old. I got pictures of him and he is a scrapping young man, beautiful. He started nursery school, went for six months, I remember, got all As, got glowing recommendations. He was, never sick. I noticed he had a bruise one day, the bruise didn't clear up, on his leg. We took him to a doctor; they didn't know what it was. The doctors here at Newark, I'm sorry, in New Brunswick. We took him to the local hospital, it was Middlesex Hospital, this is currently Robert Wood Johnson Hospital. They couldn't diagnose it. They didn't know what it was, and they got a specialist and he came from Highland Park and he couldn't diagnose it, he didn't know what it was either. We got to Boston and they diagnosed it as aplastic anemia, which was a one hundred percent fatal. They couldn't do anything, and they tried experimental things like this transplant, which they couldn't, they won't do, that's why we went there, because I would do anything. So they tried two bone marrow transplants besides massive blood transfusions, which I donated. I used to go twice a week to give blood, but I couldn't save him. We were devastated. He was younger. His older brother was at that time, he was going to New Brunswick High School. We lived in North Brunswick, didn't have a high school there, so we had to go to New Brunswick High School, which was my district, and he was a freshman there and my daughter was in elementary school. So, we lost one member of my family in 1971, twenty years ago. I still follow the progress of that disease. It's not very much more successful today than it was then, unless they get an exact bone, exact transplant match which is almost impossible. You can get a close match, but unless they're an exact match and an exact match can only come from a genetic twin, you know, or somebody who is so close that it could be almost an identical match. But they tried and, you know, there was nothing known about it at that time. Even today, it's a rare disease. It still, you know, fatal, with a little more success now, than it was then. So I have one surviving son, who is forty-five, born 1954, right, forty-five, who is an assistant professor in the University of Louisville Dental School. He was chosen last year as the most distinguished professor, part-time, he works two days a week and he has his practice, three days a week. He is the number one periodontist in Louisville. So I'm a proud parent. I go down to see him. I go visit. My biggest thrill is to visit him in the dental school where he sits me down; he's in charge of the graduate periodontal program. They admit two graduate dentists into the periodontist program, two a year. It takes three years to get through, so they have six in the program. He's in charge of that, and they follow around, like ducks, like a mother duck. He is quite successful there and they gave him this award last year, as most distinguished professor. They offered him a promotion to associate but you have to do research to get to be associate and he doesn't want to do that. He doesn't have the time. Anyway, my daughter is a teacher, a second grade teacher in a upscale district, Arlington School District in New York, which is near where they live, Wappinger Falls, it's near Poughkeepsie. She's been there for about twelve years now, also highly respected. She has two children. My oldest grandson just was admitted into SUNY in New York, Albany campus. He's going there, pre-med, starting; he just graduated, starting in September. He was a good student. He was an honor student but he was not able to get into the, you know, the elite schools. SUNY is a good school, but not, you know, compared to Rutgers, even now. The time I went, it was not, particularly, have the respect that it has now.

SH: Did either one of your children go to school at Rutgers?

HL: No. No. As a matter-of-fact, my son applied and I remember calling the admissions office as a graduate, asking them to look at my son's credentials very carefully and to admit him and I asked for this as a graduate of the program. He was not admitted. He was not admitted. He was not an outstanding student, graduated from New Brunswick High School, they have North Brunswick High School now. Graduated from New Brunswick High School, he was not admitted. He was not that great of a student. He went to Newark State College, which is now Kean and got his teaching certificate there, and he started, after he graduated college, he started as a science teacher, East Brunswick High School and he worked there for one week. But he applied to Princeton as a special student because he, we talked about getting him to medical school, at that time. I was very interested in getting him into medical school and he, again, graduated with an average, not outstanding record, from what is now Kean, Newark State College, and he then went to start to work here as a science teacher and then we got a call from Princeton which admitted him as a special student taking science courses and we knew with all the Princeton credentials, he could get into medical school easier. So he decided to give up teaching. He worked there for one week. They wanted to bring charges against him because he signed a contract and, you know, but he was able to get out of it. He went to Princeton for a year and took science courses there and then went down to go to school in Kentucky as a psychologist. He took one year of psychology courses there to establish a residence because we decided that Kentucky had two medical schools, was the best state to be admitted, for an average student, because they had two medical schools and they gave preference to their state residents and it was the ratio of residents to medical school is the lowest.

SH: Did he ever have to worry about the draft for Vietnam?

HL: No. He was never was up for draft. I don't know if he was, just, I think, he escaped it for some reason. But I think he was of age. Vietnam was 1960s, was it? He was younger. Incidentally, they tried to get me back to the Korean War. That is a war that I was glad to get out of. I read about it, I've experienced, I understand that the Korean War, a lot of World War II veterans were also in the Korean War. That war was absolutely cataclysmic. It was unbelievable. The climate, the cold weather, the ferocious fighting, was far different from World War II and there was no support from here. World War II was glorified. I used to walk around in my uniform in World War II, anybody would give you anything you wanted as a soldier. Korean War was different. So he was never in there, but he finally was accepted. He didn't tell me, but the same date as the medical school entrance test and the dental school entrance test was given, it was given on the same day and he decided, he had a choice. Well, he wasn't that great of a student, so he decided it might be easier to go to dental school. Passed his exam and he was accepted. He had a tough time. First year, boy, he was on the verge of dropping out. He couldn't take it. It was very rigorous. He got through it. He came out with honors, as a matter-of-fact. He improved as a student and he gave a presentation last year to the American Academy of Periodentology in San Diego, California. That was their annual meeting. He was one of the featured speakers. So he improved.

SH: Over the years, did you keep up your acting or your …

Did you do any theater or anything?

HL: No. No. I just, mostly was involved in my own business and teaching, in guidance counseling, and my own business kept me pretty busy. So I never went back to that.

SH: When did you start the swing dancing?

HL: Oh, that was, yeah, I started that when I was, well, I started that during, I used to go around these canteens during the, when I was in service. They had this one house, you know, for soldiers that come in and anything you have, they have it. The had girls come in, you know, dance with you, talk to you. I got started there, but I continued it while I was working in the Catskill Mountains. They had these dance areas for the people, the guests come in, and I started dancing there and at one point, they asked me to give rumba lessons. I says, "No, I have no time for that." I turned that down, you know. I was at that time, a waiter, you know. So I continued waiting for the rest of the summer. So I started there, you know, dancing, Latin dancing and swing, but I mostly prefer swing. It's coming back I understand. At that time, it was very popular. World War II was where it started. World War II, it was so popular. It's coming back now. It's making a revival, I understand.

SH: Do you remember any band that came to Rutgers when you were up here?

HL: No. As a matter-of-fact, I don't remember going to any events here, while I was here. It was all business, you know. The first two years I was here, there was a lot of partying in the fraternity houses, mostly, but when I returned it was strictly going to school, getting good grades, and preparing for your work.

SH: What is your hobby now that you're retired?

HL: Three hobbies, actually. Dancing, which we go to, we practice our swing dancing about twice a month in the Taj Mahal in Atlantic City. We're members of the President's Club. It's a club, you know, for preferred gamblers, you know, who gamble at a consistent basis and they give you anything you want. We have the run of the house. We were invited there and they have these events, they have these dinner dances about once, twice usually a month, sometimes, once a month. We're going as a matter-of-fact this Friday night, and we usually stay over one night. They give us a free room. We have a gourmet dinner and entertainment at these dances and they have this big swing, they play all kinds of music, but they do play some swing music and we've attended about, close to a 100 of these events in the past seven or eight years since we have been going there and we enjoy that and then we go on vacation. We go to Bahamas, usually twice a year. We came back in February from New Atlantis Hotel, in the Bahamas, it's a gorgeous place, and we're going back again with my daughter and my son, we get together, usually, once a year in the Bahamas and I see, I have all my grandchildren there. Otherwise, to see them, I have to down to see them, … it's difficult to get them all together. We get together once a year. So I have that and, again, I have my business that's, I want to get rid of, I want to go out of that now… and my grandchildren. I have three, all unique. The oldest boy had some problems with communications skills but he's mostly gotten over it. He is six foot five inches, plays football and wrestling in Wappinger Falls High School, and he's got a physique I wish I had. He's really beautifully built I have one granddaughter who is a budding actress. She is a gifted musician and a gifted actress. She got an award as the best actress in Junior High School; she's going to high school this September. She appeared in a play in the Catskill Mountains, in one of the dramatic schools, one of the best-known dramatic schools there. We went to see her. I've seen her appear in about maybe ten or fifteen different plays, all different roles, and she's, I think, she's got some talent. I got plans for her to go to Julliard, incidentally, and she's a nice, strictly an A student. The youngest, my son only has one boy, he's unique, also. This guy is so fast, he speaks quickly but so clearly and lucidly and he's ahead of you. You ask him a question, he'll answer it before you finish the question. He is so quick. He is ten years old, but he's got talents that, anyway, maybe I'm exaggerating. So I enjoy following their careers, you know, and we enjoy going to see my granddaughter's performances. Once she was in a playhouse in Poughkeepsie about a year ago, "Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory," she had one of the leading parts in that play. It was beautiful. She appeared with adults at that time. Well, she's mostly appeared only with juveniles, but she's appeared in two or three plays with adults, you know, professional actors, and she's given auditions and she's getting roles wherever she applies, you know. She's also quite good; she's a good pianist. So I enjoy that and I enjoy following my son's career, I really do, and I enjoy these, I enjoy visiting, he takes me to dental school. I like to walk around there. I like to see his classes and so I follow him. I follow that, my grandchildren, and my dancing.

SH: We thank you for coming today and taking part in the program.

HL: Well, I thank you for your invitation. It was a pleasure.

SH: Again, our thanks and have a good summer.

HL: Thank you very much.

--------------------------------------------END OF INTERVIEW--------------------------------------------

Reviewed by John Eiche 3/4/03

Reviewed by Sandra Stewart Holyoak 3/16/03

Reviewed by Harvey Lowy 5/03


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