Tudor, David

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  • Interviewee: Tudor, David
  • PDF Interview
  • Date: March 13, 1998
  • Place: Cranbury, New Jersey
  • Interviewers:
    • G. Kurt Piehler
    • Marcel Brus-Ramer
  • Transcript Production Team:
    • Michael Bino
    • Bojan Stefanovic
    • Shaun Illingworth
    • David Tudor
    • Sandra Stewart Holyoak
  • Recommended Citation: Tudor, David Oral History Interview, March 13, 1998, by G. Kurt Piehler and Marcel Brus-Ramer, Page #, Rutgers Oral History Archives. Online: Insert URL (Last Accessed: Insert Date).
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Dr. David Tudor, RC '40 asked that the following material appear before his transcript.  This account originally appeared in Dr. Tudor's pre-interview survey.

Our lonely troop ship with 1000 men left San Francisco late one afternoon in August of 1945.  No one was permitted on deck until nighttime.  I was assigned a cot directly under the quarter inch steel deck of the fantail.  The sun made the deck so hot one could hardly stand it and were glad to get a breath of fresh air.

We arrived in Pearl Harbor three days later where we picked up two other troop ships and a picket boat.  The latter kept up a constant patrol of our convoy on its way to Eniwetok Atoll.  Unfortunately, one ship developed engine trouble one day out and had to return to Pearl.  I found an unused cot on the fantail, but was forced to give it up during target practice by the skeleton Merchant Marine staff of our ship.  It was comforting to have the .50mm gun aboard as I watched the periscope of the Japanese sub trailing our ships.  The single gun kept the sub under the water during the day.  Below the water, the sub could not go as fast as we, thus, it lagged behind.  At night, it surfaced, but could not get in position for a good shot.  We later learned that our forces had sunk the sub prior to our entrance to the south channel of Eniwetok Atoll.  It had taken almost twenty-eight days to reach the safe haven of the Atoll.  Further orders holding us there permitted us to go ashore at Ulithi Island.  It was a beautiful area.  The natives had been moved to other, non-combatant, islands.  After two days rest, we proceeded to Batangas and Manila.  The two bombs were dropped on Japan, but fighting continued in many areas.  I was assigned as an aide to General Styer who was the chief surgeon for the Pacific Theater.  All medical reports of US military personnel crossed my desk.  I spent one-and-a-half years in Manila and enjoyed my tour of duty.  I was to complete my duty in charge of the ship returning fifty medical doctors and 500 other personnel.  I also was in charge of a troop train leaving San Francisco for Fort Dix, New Jersey in January of 1947.  It was so cold, icicles formed in the Pullman cars.

I entered the Veterinary School at the University of Pennsylvania in 1947 and joined the Rutgers staff in 1951. 

Kurt Piehler: This begins an interview with Dr. David Tudor on March 13, 1998, in Cranbury, New Jersey, and, I might add, in Dr. Tudor's veterinary office, with Kurt Piehler and ...

Marcel Brus-Ramer: Marcel Brus-Ramer.

KP: Doctor Tudor, can you tell us a little bit about your life, beginning with your parents and growing up in South Jersey?

David Tudor: I was born in Wildwood, New Jersey, and my folks lived on a poultry farm, so that poultry was our main existence in that county, along with several other poultry farmers. ... My friends, Mrs. and Mr. Stackhouse, took me up to meet with the dean and I was accepted at Rutgers. That gave me the opportunity of ... going four years there, at Rutgers.

We would go down to … [feed] our chickens, down at the poultry farm, and then, go off down before the classes started, so that we could take care of our birds before we got up in the morning. ... Once in a while, the fellas would take a chicken, or some eggs, from me and I would [also] sell those to local people in New Brunswick, and that gave me an opportunity to pay for the food that we were able to buy, and it cost us about $2.34 for our weekly meals. We did not have very much money at that time, that was during the Depression. … The very fact that we were able to take care of the birds, and get to our classes on time, enabled us to ... stay together.

I was housed upstairs in the poultry building, Thompson Hall. ... There were, I think, fourteen individuals who had the same privilege of staying there in the building and there were about fifty of us throughout the campus that had the same opportunity. We enjoyed the concerts, ... particularly, ... in my case, the band. I was in the Glee Club, and I was also in the band at Rutgers. … I got a chance to go to all the football games, which was a big help, because that helped us get past the gate. ... It gave me the opportunity of going to all of the games. ¼ We helped to dedicate the football stadium, and we, of course, had to participate in ... the football marches that took place. ...

KP: You mentioned that Professor Helyar was pretty important to you, particularly when you were a student.

DT: Well, ... his office was next door in the administration building and our windows, upstairs in Thompson Hall, overlooked Dr. Helyar's office. Every once in a while, he would take his car full of students across town and we didn't have to walk back and forth each time. Fortunately, we had bicycles and, at that time, we didn't have to worry too much about loss of bikes or equipment. ... My stay at Rutgers was a very happy one. … During that period, my father was unable to work, and I recall, very vividly, ... I wanted to go and see my parents, because my father had been quite ill for eleven years, and was unable to work. ...

I was under the care and supervision of Dr. Beaudette, and he learned that I ... had a problem at home, so, he invited me to come see him in his office. This was Dr. Beaudette who later employed me as a member of his staff. Dr. Beaudette said, "Dave, I understand you got a problem. I want you to go see your parents and I want you to take my car." In that ... day, it was a Studebaker that was the key vehicle for anybody to have, and, in this case, he had me drive his new Studebaker while he went to speak at an agricultural poultry meeting in Mays Landing. ... I learned very quickly how to drive a new car, which was a real blessing, because ... it added, I'm sure, some years to my folks' existence. ... Other folks, also, such as the Stackhouse family and the Clinton family, used to come up and see us there in the building. ... I worked at the poultry farm, where I cleaned the chicken houses, and they had the various eggs to collect, and these were state eggs. … I also went in to help clean out gutters in the dairy barn, but, most of my extra work was with the poultry area just across the fence, next to Squibb.

One thing that was of interest to me, as I was working there on the college farm, was that Squibb had their horse barns right next door and a lot of corn passed right through the animals, so that this enticed rats in that area. We had no idea how many rats there were, but, I knew that I had seen quite a few looking through ... the screening around the poultry house. One night, ... we took all the food away, and put in laced rat poison, and put that in there. It would not hurt the birds, because the birds could vomit and the rats couldn't. … Believe it or not, the next morning, with a pitch fork, and two other members of the staff there, ... I picked up rats. … We picked up three bushel baskets full of rats, dead rats. It was an exciting day to see that many rats and we had no idea that that's how many were being fed by our hoppers and our (p-feed?). Where do you want to go from here? Do you have any questions?

MB: Talking about your father, what did your father do as a profession?

DT: My father was a poultry farmer. … He originated out in Pennsylvania, where he had been a supervising principal at one of the local schools ... in the area of ... western Pennsylvania.

I also had the job of being night watchman around the farm. It was necessary to reduce the insurance costs, fire insurance costs, for the buildings. I went around from one farm to the other and plugged in a time clock, to show that I had been at the various buildings and at what time I had been there. This was part of the game. ... It was interesting to come up behind a car that had been parked with a young fellah and a young girl, or with someone else, who was interested in enjoying themselves. [Laughter] I, in fact, often used to crawl into the corn cribs there, around the machinery shed, and at that location we could pick up our guns, and I carried a .45 revolver with me, going from one building after another, and, also, knocking on the doors and windows of occupied cars. ... One thing I never really did, I never did get anything with that. I mean, [I] didn't shoot anything with that gun. Although, one night, I saw so many rats, I decided I would see if I could hit one of them, and, you know, I never did get anything that I tried to shoot. The folks ... that lived on the poultry farm were very kind to me, and helped me with extra food at times. … There, at the farm, they heard the noise. They had gone to bed, and they heard the noise, and they came running out, and, of course, they had their night clothes on. ... It amazed the people that I was allowed to carry a .45 revolver on the campus. You couldn't possibly do that now. No one could carry a gun of any kind. In any event, ... the buildings were quite secure and we only had one fire on the farm while I was up there as a student. Fortunately, no one was hurt. … It was just a matter of ether being used where it shouldn't have been.

KP: When you were a guard, this was at Rutgers?

DT: That's right and I was on the agricultural campus, Cook College.

KP: You also did this for your father?

DT: I helped at home, of course, when I was there, but I only got home once in a while, for very short intervals.

KP: How big was your father's farm?

DT: We didn't have very many birds. Actually, the flock that we had was about ... one thousand birds in number. My poor folks made the mistake of buying barred-rock chickens, these are speckled, black and white birds. They just didn't lay any eggs. ... My folks had purchased the birds, and kept them on the farm, and, of course, they had to provide food for them, and they just would not produce eggs. The leghorn breed is a much better egg producer and they will produce quite well, but, barred-rocks, Rhode Island reds, and others that were heavy meat birds did not produce very much in the way of eggs. Where do we go from here?

KP: Do you know how your parents met and what led them to come to Cape May from Pennsylvania?

DT: My father was a super. My father learned to be a carpenter, and, as such, he sought work wherever he could get it. … Wildwood, Cape May, Burleigh ... all had theaters put up by the Hunts folks, and, one by one, each of those theaters burned down. We always wondered just how they ever got started. My father got a job supervising the construction of these theaters that were burned down and others that had been around for a long time. He had the responsibility of the first theater in Wildwood and ... the timbers from that theater are still in place. They are next to what is known as the Blaker Theater. The business of construction, then, was an important one, and my father obtained ... the job ... of building the structure. ... My father had been teaching, and he was getting the total sum of about $600 a year, and, of course, that was not a decent wage, and he was trying to find a different location. He went down to Wildwood, where he was able to get a job as a boss carpenter.

KP: Your mother was also a teacher.

DT: Yes, my mother was a teacher, as was my father. I'm not sure, I know that my father was a supervising principal at one time, and he had all the township records there in the office, ... his office, in Bloomsberg, Pennsylvania. During a very cold night, such as we've been having, the fire was stoked a bit too much, and the protection around the stove ignited the wall, and the whole building went. Unfortunately, jobs were few and far between. … My folks were able to move to Wildwood, where they continued to keep their business until my folks ... were interrupted, simply because of health reasons. Now, my mother was a teacher in a multiple room schoolhouse for several years, and, of course, this enabled my mother and father to meet each other, and, thus, the junction of the two was made. I don't know what else to tell you.

MB: Since both of your parents were teachers, was education a big part of your life? Did they emphasize it?

DT: ... They both did their utmost to provide for my subsistence at Rutgers. The opportunity ... of going to class, and meeting new friends, and getting different ideas, made for a very important part of my life. ... My father was able to advise me how to construct materials, but he, himself, could not work. ... My home was near the water, between Stone Harbor and (Englese?), and, there, we had our farm and our buildings. The ability of my father to advise me, enabled me to build a sailboat, a fifteen-foot catboat, which kept me off the highway. I didn't use any gas and the wind gave me a lot of pleasure, watching, chasing ducks, and going across the meadow, collecting oysters. ... Our poultry section was one in which the litter was a problem, at [that] time, because you had to dispose of manure and the (staysdry?), or litter material. ... One day, I went down to see my folks. While they continued to live down at the shore, I was up here at Rutgers getting my degree. When I took the dog with me, I took a walk down to the meadow, and I had thrown a number of oyster shells off in the water, where the tide would cover the shells twice a day. It was a surprise to me to find, to easily find, over a hundred oysters that had developed there where I had originally sewn the oyster shells as seed. In other words, oysters grow on other oysters, and, by putting those shells out where ... the salty water could strike [them], there was an ample opportunity for the oysters to grow and multiply. This was a very good outlet for me to go down with my animals, the pets, and ... I would ... always save the shells, so that I'd get a crop of oysters the next time I was down. You've never had that experience collecting oysters on your own, I'm sure.

KP: No, no.

DT: You'll find that the oysters cling to the banks and oyster shells as the tide waters move back and forward, eroding the bank. ...

KP: Before we leave your growing up in Cape May, what else did you do for fun? It sounds like you had a lot of fun sailing and seeding your oyster bed, but, what else did you do? Were you a Boy Scout?

DT: Yes. I was a Boy Scout for a very short period of time, but, not to any real extent. I do ... remember, though, Jim Stackhouse, who was a good chum of mine. He recently has had a tumor of the brain and I don't know his situation at this point. ¼ What else was it?

KP: What else did you do for fun growing up? Did you ever go to the movies?

DT: I would always try to shorten my legs any time I went to a theater, simply because they judged the cost of going to that theater by how high you were, whether you could see over the edge of the change-(per?), so that, ... If I had five cents for a week, ... I could have an ice-cream cone. That was about as much as I could get. My folks did not have the funds. I can well remember my mother coming to me one Christmas and saying, "We have a feed bill of $1000, so I won't be able to get you much for Christmas." It was just one of those things. You tried to help out your parents wherever you could and try to cut on expenses.

... The one thing I did do, we lived close to the golf course, what was called the Wildwood Golf Course, and my chums and I would gather up our eyesight and walk around the edges of the golf course to look for golf balls. We could sell those golf balls back to the players. ... A good one was twenty-five cents. We seldom saw ... one over thirty cents. For the most part, it was ten cents ... for a golf ball, but, that meant that we could get some candy, or something. … I was glad that the fellas were such good shots, because I would go from one tee to the other, and they would always have somebody chasing us, so, we couldn't stay there very long. ... They were afraid we were going to take something off the main portion of the golf links. I never did get to be much of a golfer, because I had to gather the eggs and sand the eggs. We had sandpaper. ... You sanded the eggs to get them clean. You didn't have the washing equipment that we presently have, but the eggs go through a continuous belt and are washed while they're being passed through ... on the belt.

KP: What was a typical day like growing up, particularly on the farm? We have not interviewed too many people that grew up on a farm, and so, what time would you get up, and what would your day be like, particularly in the summer, when you were not in school?

DT: Well, my mother always tried to do more than she should have. ... She was anxious to give me as much help as possible and ... I can well remember doing quite well in math. ... One lady came into our place, and talked with my mother, and I had the opportunity to tutor one of the students who hadn't done too well. The following year, he was head of his class. I was quite pleased that I gave this person a good background in the math that we were having.

My folks would buy their feed from one of the grain sales people. We would buy a hundred pounds and put the feed into hoppers along the edge. They'd also get oyster shell and that would be a source of calcium for the eggs. My folks always tried to see that I had more than my share. ... We enjoyed the first radio broadcast. The neighbor's children came over, we had an Delco radio, and it was one of the first around. We'd all gather around the radio and we'd listen to whatever the radio would ... provide.

KP: What year was this? Do you remember?

DT: It was around 1930, ... somewhere. ¼ I'm not sure.

KP: Did your family farm always have electricity?

DT: Our folks were one of the first to have ¼ a telephone. You'd crank it up.

KP: You would crank it?

DT: That's right. It'd be the box on the wall. You would hang the phone beside it. It had a speaking tube that you'd bring your mouth up to. ... Whenever you were trying to reach somebody, you'd crank it up, and, too often, you'd find that these weren't single phones. They were community phones, so, too often, you'd find someone else was listening in on your conversation. ... This was part of life ... on the farm. You expected other people to use the phone, also. It was ... not a problem for us, when you were willing to give.

I can well remember a woods fire out behind our property and my folks were worried it would come toward the house. That was a real problem. We had a gasoline stove, and that gasoline stove would get too much fuel at times, and the whole thing would go up in flames. I used to help my folks [put] tar paper on the roof, on the poultry houses. We had one hired man that also helped. This one (period?) chicken house was to get a new coat of tar paper, and so, ... we had to warm up the asphalt. So, what my father did was take a fifty-five gallon drum and open up one end of it, so that fumes could come off. The fire was put underneath the barrel, and ... you could throw the chunks of asphalt into the barrel, and it would melt down. But, my folks were not aware of the fact that methane gas was produced whenever that asphalt was heated and I wasn't advised not to try to put out any fire if it started to burn. What happened was, I was nearby, and the fire started, from the methane gas burning the asphalt, and the surrounding grass, and so forth. As I tried to put out the fire, ... I threw a partial bucket of water on it, and it exploded. I was burned with third degree burns over part of my body. I spent most of the summer in bed, but, I had such a good doctor. ... He knew his job, ... and I came out without any facial or skin damage, and the fire was put out. It took ... quite a little while and quite a little doing, though. What else can we say?

KP: Was math your favorite subject in school?

DT: Yes, I enjoyed it very much. My math teacher actually came from Englishtown over here and she was here having dinner with us on December 7th. I enjoyed having her as our guest in our home and my father was dead then. My mother still was living. So, we just carried on as we normally did. What's the next question?

KP: How helpful was the 4-H agency to your family growing up? Do you remember the 4-H?

DT: I never had time for 4-H work. When you gathered the eggs, you cleaned them up, and got them ready for sale, ... or we had broken eggs, or cracked eggs, mother would use those in place of nice clean ones that we could sell at a premium. What else can we say?

KP: Who would you sell the eggs to?

DT: We'd normally sell the eggs to people who would normally come in on a weekly basis to take ... half a crate of eggs, or, maybe, only three or four dozen. ... Those eggs were used as carefully as we could, so that we could prevent the loss that would normally occur without real care. A cracked egg would certainly go in a hurry. Something would get in and ... break them further. What else can we say?

KP: At Rutgers, you played in a band, as you mentioned earlier.

DT: Right.

KP: Did that exempt you from ROTC?

DT: Yes, right.

KP: Did you want to take ROTC? Did you have any interest in it?

DT: Yes, I was fully aware that, by taking ROTC, ... I would not have to abide by the ROTC regulations and rules.

KP: So, by taking band, you would not have to follow the ROTC rules?

DT: Yes, no problem. That's right. I often wish they would have provided us with larger clothing, because I just couldn't fit into the ones that they gave us. I don't know what else to tell you.

KP: What instrument did you play?

DT: It was saxophone. A man came through town and I think of this one song about the person who sold all those instruments as he went through town. Well, that's exactly what took place, in my case. My folks figured that I would like to be present in that high school band. ... I learned ... the band leader, or seller, was one who used his pervasive powers to sell his product. I got ten lessons with that saxophone, and that got me into the band, and I got ten lessons in the high school, and I'm in no ways a musician or a Glee Club member. ...

--------------------------------END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE-------------------------------

DT: Mr. (Moe?), the music leader, would take on ... people who were a little bit delinquent in their music and we got, I think it was, twenty-five dollars each Sunday we participated in Glee Club at Old Queens Campus. So, I participated in the Glee Club. I remember Mr. McKinney taking another look at me. … He turned me down the first time. The next time through though, Mr. (Moe?) decided that, if I would stay and learn, ... he would give me backing. I got into the Glee Club, and I got into the band, and I stuck with it. In some cases, I think folks would be better off without my abilities. [laughs] But, nevertheless, I had a good time and I enjoyed it. What other questions can we ask?

MB: Other than the band, did you do any sports at Rutgers or the high school as well?

DT: Wrestling. The only thing I felt I had any time for was the wrestling, but, I was disappointed, really. It may be that we just didn't have the training or people providing training. There were no recordings or directions that you could follow. I didn't feel that I had learned anything by being in the organization. ... I played as hard as I could, but, that wasn't satisfactory at that point in time. Anything else?

KP: When you came to Rutgers, or, actually, the College of Agriculture, did you expect to eventually have your own poultry farm? Was that your hope? What type of career did you hope to have?

DT: Teaching. Well, I'll tell you, ... it's one thing that people don't quite understand. I was the son of a poultry farmer, and, to be honest with you, I was afraid I wouldn't be able to find a girl that would marry me. I realized that my folks didn't have the funds, and, as a result, ... money talked. I could soon figure that out. ... I just didn't have the funds to follow through on that. ... I would really have enjoyed having music lessons, but, we just didn't have the funds for it. ... I don't think the chickens liked the sound too much either. ... [laughter]

KP: You mentioned going to the football games, did you ever go to any of the dances, the Military Ball, etc.?

DT: Glen Miller, band leader, yes. They don't have those any more.

KP: No, no, they do not.

DT: But, I know my wife and I used to make arrangements in advance, well in advance, so that we would get tickets to go to the dance. If we got to go to four dances a year, we were doing good.

KP: How did you meet your wife? It sounds like you met her in college.

DT: I won't dare tell my wife I can't remember. During the summertime, coming back from Rutgers, I used to work at a gas station in Wildwood, and my wife used to come down on weekends from Philadelphia, where she had a job. Emily was a stalwart, and we got along pretty well, and, finally, her mother and father decided it was time I should make a decision, and we got married. ... [laugh]

Emily Tudor: Yeah, we got married fifty-seven years ago.

KP: What year did you get married?

ET: 1941.

KP: 1941.

ET: April, '41.

DT: Just a little bit before we went overseas to Manila.

I just want you to meet these fellahs. They've been trying to find something that they haven't covered in my life history. [laughter] Do you have any questions further that you can think of?

EMB: That's good.

KP: One question is, did you expect the war to take place? Did you expect to serve in the military?

ET: Oh, yes, he was registered a long time before he was called.

KP: How did you get your first job after college? You started to tell us before we started the tape.

DT: You won't have to stay.

EMB: Oh, I won't?

KP: Unless you want to.

ET: No, that's all right. Nice to meet you.

KP: Very nice meeting you. I was mentioning how you got your first job earlier, before we started the tape.

DT: ... My first job was ... putting milk in milk bottles for a dairyman. After that, they sort of went out of business, so, that was no longer an opportunity. ...

KP: You taught school after college.

DT: I taught vocationary agriculture in Toms River High School, New Jersey, and I enjoyed that, because it brought me ... some money. … Really, the thing that was important when I was in the service, I was in Manila for one and a half years. ...

[Tape Paused]

KP: You were telling us about Manila.

DT: [laugh] Would you get me back on track? I taught agriculture in high school and, also, biology. So, those were my two courses that I helped with in the high school. ...

KP: In terms of the service and teaching, you were teaching when the war broke out, when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

DT: Right, so, I was taken in, and, at that point, I had been at Rutgers and I had finished the year out there. I continued, then, to learn what I could do to facilitate my part in the in the war effort. I brought some notes along with me, if you don't mind.

KP: Please, please, go right ahead.

DT: ... I knew I was going to go into service. ... My wife found a job in a lumber company down in Toms River. During the summertime, I had talked to veterans, poultry farmers, and this could provide us a little bit more money. I knew that Fort Dix was my entrance point, so, I entered the service at Cape May Court House. ... No, I'm sorry, Cape May, and, by train, we went to Camden, and there, first, I went to Fort Dix, and, also, I had to stop at Camden. I got to Dix and they immediately shipped me off to Chicago. In Chicago, I had been assigned, given orders, to go with a male nurse to Abilene, Texas, to ... Camp Barclay, and I went by train to Abilene, where I went through basic infantry ... and medical basic. I told them I was interested in going to veterinary school, so, they put me in the medics. That's how I got that job and it was an experience, that's for sure. I went from Abilene, after I finished my two basic intervals. I indicated to them that I was interested in the medics, so, they sent me to Dickinson, where I went through training for Officer Candidate [School], at the War College, Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

MB: Where is Dickinson?

DT: Carlisle, Pennsylvania. Dickinson College was at Dickinson, at one of the old schools. I got ... my bars, gold bars, ... two of them, and I was a second grade lieutenant at that point. I finished up at Dickinson and they sent me to Chicago, at the Naval Training Unit. I had no idea that we had so many people that were in the service that couldn't read or write. I had no idea. ... I would guess that about half the people that were brought into service were brought in and they had to learn to read or write. … That was part of my training, was to supervise the examinations that they took. If they got a grade lower on a second examination, they were shipped automatically overseas. So, you made sure that your second exam was a better average than you normally do. One of the things that I learned from that area was that a group of these fellahs were shipped into Camp Hood in Texas. There, in Camp Hood, I took about a thousand fellahs down to a tank organization at Hood, Texas. From that particular area, I had taken the recruits down, and ... it turned out to be a tank outfit.

When they looked at me a second time, they sent me to Fitzsimons Hospital out in Denver. From Denver, I went to Stockton, California, where I jumped on the boat at Los Angeles. We went by three tugs to Pearl Harbor in Hawaii. I was really dumbfounded by the beauty of the water in that area. It was so clean and so blue that you could look down for many feet below the vessels that still remained afloat. All of the ships were still underwater at that point. From Hawaii, three ships, buckets, I call them, were sent to Eniwetok, and [in] Eniwetok, we were in excess. The Army didn't know what to do with us. We had all that army material and personnel at Clark Field in Manila, or ... just outside of Manila, and they just didn't know what to do with us. ... I was in one group that was permitted to go onshore at Eniwetok. That was where they tested the bomb. What they did was to have a metal gate, the gate was about thirty feet, and, when the ship came in, they would pull that gate over and pull it back again.

The submarine, ... yes, ... that was with my friend. In a way, you might say it was a friend, but, he didn't realize that his sub couldn't go any faster than we were going. He came out of the water. We had a gun on the posterior deck and we could fire on him, even though the fellahs couldn't hit us if you tried. They followed us all the way from Pearl Harbor to Hawaii. Three shiploads of men, a thousand in each ship, and we all got inside the port there at Hawaii, Pearl Harbor, and there we were safe. They didn't realize ... that the submarines couldn't get to us. We were inside, where, when it got dark, one by one, we'd get out. Then, we would join forces. I sat on a cot, I think it was about twenty-nine days, on the outside, and whether it rained or not, I was on the outside, where I could watch what was going on. I could see that there were two periscopes. I could see them following us. They didn't dare come beside us, because, then, they could be hit broadside and they weren't going fast enough to get ahead while the sub was underneath.

So, coming back, we got a chance to go to Eniwetok as we were going out on our way to Manila. While we were on the way to Manila, we had the opportunity of going ashore for a brief time, and even though we waded with wet boots, we kept them on the whole time. We never took them off and used them wet. Eniwetok had some beautiful isles. It's called an atoll, a circular ring of volcanoes. These were all volcanoes, and the only reason they were able to get the ships inside was that, here, the gate was deeper, and they could bring that back and forth, and close it off, so, no submarine could get inside. ... Land was beautiful after being out there watching those subs and periscopes.

We got off at the island of (Mugmug?) and that was our final destination. I shouldn't say that it was final at that point. It was only a matter of a day or two and we were finished, as far as our trip was concerned. Other questions?

MB: You seemed to travel a lot in a short period. Did you notice any major differences between, especially, Texas and New Jersey?

DT: My first experience in service was when I was required to look out at the full moon and the train was going across the flat, flat land of Texas. I just couldn't believe that land could be so flat. I know that the conductor who was on our train would wonder, I'm sure, if I would try to jump the train or not. He was watching it the whole time. He didn't let me out of his sight. I had no idea about that business. What else was tied to that question you had?

MB: In Texas, in particular, the society ...

DT: Hot, dry, a hundred and twenty degrees. That was Texas, as far as I was concerned.

... Yes, I've had the pleasure of going to many, many places, and I recall very vividly, my wife was asking me about what I noted in Manila, or just outside of Manila, Batangas, and the point was that it stunk. It was just stinky. There is no underground sewage disposal, it's all surface. So, it is a very sweet, sweet, rotten taste, ... odor I should say. I found that, over there, there is just no surface drainage.

... The first night I was in Manila, we waded ashore in landing craft, and, as we got into shore, I noticed that there were a couple water buffaloes, and a man was trying to plow his field with these water buffaloes, and the water buffaloes were down to their belly in mud, and they just couldn't move, and, that night, they were tethered. These two water buffaloes were tethered. We had one tent that had a mosquito bar, so, we didn't have to be bothered when we were resting. We didn't have to be bothered with having to bat the mosquitoes or spray them. The one thing that was ironic, to me, on the first night at Batangas, the odor came first, and, secondly, I guess you'd call, the water buffaloes themselves. They came up to the tent and the training officer had decided to put a film into a reel and give us a little entertainment. It turned out, these water buffaloes didn't like the film, and they ... had to be moved just a short distance away, otherwise, they'd try to knock the tent down. It is interesting just to see how animals and people react when they get into a different situation, as we were at that point. Right behind us was an area where they were fighting and we were only a short distance away.

I got a chance to get up to Laoag, which is the northern most town in the Philippine Islands chain. ... I did hitchhike, by plane, up to Clark Field, which was about fifty miles away. I could have gone to Guam, but, I didn't. I was a little bit afraid that I could have got court-martialed. There were about fifty of us there that were officer material and they were trying to find a place to put us, at that point.

KP: You ended up serving as an aide to a general.

DT: Yes, General (Styer?).

KP: What was your job when you were with him?

DT: The colonel, ... you had the general, then, a colonel, and another captain, and that was the chain of command. When I was there, if the colonel wanted something, shoelaces, I would be the one to go get them for him. If there was a vehicle that needed taking care of, I was the one to do it, the directions that were given by the personnel. ... I had the opportunity to be in charge of a hundred people inside that building who did all the typing and message transmission.

KP: How many months did you do this for? Did you serve as an aide?

DT: I served in this area for about half a year, and then, I went over and I served two years there. Well, actually, a little bit less than that, but, I had no plans what[so]ever of using the GI Bill. Although I wanted to go on in school, I didn't have the money to do it at that point. I got a chance to go up to, ... now, wait a minute, ... the lower Luzon. There was a gold mining area in Luzon and I got a chance to go up there before I came home. The war was over at that point. Other questions?

MB: Although you were an aide for the general, you were in the medics. Did you come in contact with a lot of army patients and soldiers?

DT: When I was in service, I served at Fitzsimons Hospital where I supervised the transfer of personnel that had been ... in the battles, and had broken bones, and all the different rigs to repair those legs, and so forth. I had the responsibility of saying, "All right, you can move the train," and they'd bring in another set of patients. I always wanted to be able to start a train. I found that I could do so by being on this particular job. While I was at Fitzsimons, we had to march out and collect our golf balls, believe it or not. We had to march to go and play golf, and we were forced to play golf. ... [laughs]

MB: Since you did deal with the patients in the hospital, did you perform any medical care on them?

DT: No, I wasn't a doctor, so that they couldn't give me any detail work to do. I had the pleasure of helping those boys get off that train, and saw to it that they had all the right materials, and so forth, and I'd tell the conductor, "Okay, you can go." [laughs]

MB: Well, even though you did not perform medical care with them, I was just wondering, since I am interested in medical school, do you know the policies on dealing with injured soldiers? Say they are injured very badly, at what point would the doctors have to say that we cannot go any further with treatment?

DT: Nope. ... Any problems that would arise that involved medical decisions, you had the responsibility of seeing that a doctor took care of that patient. You realize what the situation was and you tried to provide the best care that you could. That is what it amounted to. I had the opportunity of helping a good many boys and I'm pleased that I had that pleasure. At least, I was contributing. There were a good many fellahs that didn't want to get involved to that extent. That's all right, there were places where you wouldn't have to be firing a gun, for that matter. Believe it or not, I had to have an escort any time I went to pick up the funds to pay the cadre. I carried seven thousand dollars every week across town in Manila, where you would expect somebody to knock you over. Nobody ever did. They'd steal jeeps, but, they didn't know what was in the jeep. Really, ... I was pleased to have the honor of carrying that much money. They figured that I would do it and do it right. To me, it is an honor to do some things, once in a while, that you don't ordinarily consider as an honor.

KP: Were you glad that you served in the medical corps? Would you have preferred to serve in infantry or another branch?

DT: Well, I went through infantry basic. In other words, they taught me as much as they could on how to use various types of guns, ... oh, types of warheads, and so forth. I don't know what else I can tell you.

MB: When you were in Manila, you were there after the war had ended?

DT: Right.

MB: Other than dealing with the injured soldiers and the train taking them back, did you do anything with your agricultural background or teaching?

DT: At night, I taught the fellas that were interested in agriculture. I taught animal science, and they would come into one of the barracks, and we'd set up shop.

KP: You also ended up doing that in Toms River after the war.

DT: Yes, that's right. I was in the area, and my work at Rutgers was with poultry, and this was an opportunity for me to continue my personal interest. ... My personal interest was to answer some of the problems my folks had while they were in business. I felt that this was an opportunity for me to learn while I teaching someone else. That's the way it worked out.

MB: After you returned from the war, you worked in Toms River, and then, you went to the University of Pennsylvania, the Veterinary School there.

DT: ... I had carried out enough activity to pay for my education in the GI Bill of Rights. Fortunately, I had stayed long enough in Manila, and I had no idea, I was [not] doing it deliberately, but, I got just enough time to pay for my education. It's an expensive deal today.

KP: Do you think that you would have been able to go to veterinary school without the GI Bill?

DT: No. I would not have been able to, that's for sure.

MB: Do you remember what the cost of veterinary school was, at that time?

DT: Twenty-thousand.

MB: Twenty-thousand dollars for the entire time?

DT: No, that's just one year. That's a lot of money, that's for sure.

MB: When you were at vet school, you lived in Philadelphia?

DT: While I was in vet school, I lived in Philadelphia and took the trolley back and forth.

MB: Do you know what part of the city you lived in?

DT: It was the western part.

MB: The reason why I am asking is that I lived in Philadelphia. Do you have any recollections of the city at that time?

DT: I thought it was great to have the trolley system, so, I didn't have to drive and didn't have to park a car, but, I don't have anything further. ...

KP: How did you like veterinary school?

DT: How did I enjoy it? ... It was an area that I liked, and enjoyed, and I found that people would ask me, "What do you want to do? You don't want to be a teacher all the time?" My answer was that ... I had enough information to indicate that I was going to be very happy in that field. It was just a matter of being coaxed a little bit here and there to learn. Okay? I'm sure there are other questions. ...

KP: You came back to Rutgers fairly soon after you finished veterinary school. How did that come about?

DT: Dr. Beaudette was the boss and he had control of the situation. I worked in the laboratory and handled more chickens than anyone else in this state. My interest was in trying to just keep my head above water, because I had a man next to me, working, who was consuming a pint of alcohol every day before he came to work. I had another man who was very brilliant, and very kind, and very helpful. I told you about him ... letting me have his car. That chance to rub shoulders with Doc and his two sons, three sons. ... One thing you didn't know, Doc had a very pleasing way of doing business. His son was very anxious to play pranks at times. Well, I was over cleaning up his yard, and cutting his hedge for him this one day, and they invited me to dinner. So, I was going to go in, and all at once, I saw a pipe on the ground, and I had never seen a pipe like this before, and I went over to stoop down and take a look at this pipe, and all at once, I got a dose of water. Here, the boys had turned the hose so it would turn up on me while I was bending over. This was typical of Doc. He would play pranks on you when you got the chance.

MB: Since you went right to Rutgers, what was the first type of research or work that you did?

DT: One day, a classmate of mine handled fifty different lots ...

----------------------------------END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE TWO------------------------------

KP: You were saying.

DT: Jim Bivens and I, on this one particular [day], got an exceptionally heavy load. We had fifty different lots of birds. A lot of birds may be two, three, four, five birds, chickens, that you have to open, examine each of the glandular structures inside, and record it, so that you [have] a record of what [was wrong]. ... Then, tell the owner what he could do to improve his bird situation. Thus, my interest was tied to the handling of those birds and helping those poultry farmers out of the doldrums that they were in. I had three people that went home and committed suicide. They were afraid of losing all of their income from those chickens. Thus, we tried to overcome as much as possible, helping them out wherever we could. Question?

MB: So, what you were doing was of great significance to a lot of people?

DT: A lot of people were involved, that's for sure. Where do we go from here?

MB: Since you did deal with poultry, at that time, what diseases were ...

DT: Before I forget it, Doc Beaudette hired me to fill up that job. They needed someone to help, because we were getting more cases of birds, because of the Jewish Society. They were bringing in and aiding Jewish members. Jewish people had money invested in these chickens. We tried to help and I served a position, I filled a position, and, thus, I kept my job.

KP: You mentioned that they were bringing in these different diseases because this was in South Jersey after the war.

DT: It could have been at any place, for that matter. Don't worry about your chicken ... having bacteria, don't worry about it. Cook them, that's the important thing, and don't put your chicken here on the table, and then, put your cooked chicken on top of it, or mix it up together. You keep your clean chicken separate from the infected chicken. Okay?

Doc hired me for that job, and I discovered, or he discovered, ... one afternoon, he came into my office, and said, "You have to take a look at this." ... He had his X-rays with him and I soon realized that he was showing me his death certificate. He had cancer and cancer was his downfall. I was there to fill in the job of teaching. I had three courses, plus, continued work in the laboratory.

MB: What was your official position at this time? Were you an assistant professor or an associate?

DT: I was an associate, and then, I became a full research professor.

KP: What was your proudest accomplishment at Rutgers?

DT : [rustling] Disease.

MB: This book, it is a basic description about ...

DT: Bacteria, or viruses, or parasites. How do you like my artwork?

KP: So, you did all the artwork for this book, too. What year did this come out?

DT: '91.

KP: '91.

DT: I've been (looking for?) someone to edit, to work on, a new edition of it, and they were here just a little bit before you. Okay? I think that covered the waterfront.

MB: There were a couple of other things. Since you did deal with some viruses, and that falls under microbiology, did you know Dr. Waksman?

DT: Oh, yes.

MB: Can you relate anything about him?

DT: He used to have his office, ... if this were the administration building, he used to have his office at this end of the hall, on the second floor, and I, as a student from high school, ... didn't have much opportunity to be involved in 4-H. But, I was in FFA, in teaching and bringing students into classes here. This opportunity was granted to me simply because Dr. Waksman was there and I was right next door. ... He was very pleasant and he solved many of my questions that I had, I know that. He was a very pleasant fellah, as far as I was concerned. Boyd (Woodruth?) used to work with him. He was a graduate student and he was a classmate of mine.

MB: Just from my knowledge, Waksman discovered streptomycin and that was to fight what disease?

DT: Well, it was a gram negative organism that you were trying to control and streptomycin came into the picture particularly for the control of tuberculosis. Now, the dumb bunnies don't want to take their medicine, and, as a result, tuberculosis is running rampant in some areas.

MB: Did you also do work with tuberculosis?

DT: Well, in that, you never knew when you were going to have tuberculosis in the laboratory. It came in, ... and once you opened up a bird, you either said, "Yes," or, "No," and it used to be that we would get quite a number of cases of tuberculosis. Individuals who raised their chickens next to, or in conjunction with [sick people], ... whenever you have those combinations, you were bound to have further tuberculosis, because it spreads very readily in feeding containers and water containers. Where do we go from here?

MB: I know tuberculosis is a major problem...

DT: There are several types. Interesting case, a lady came in here, and I told her, "I think you have got tuberculosis," and first thing I knew, she went into the doctor, and they verified, in fact, it was tuberculosis. But, it was a combination of the pigs and the chickens that transferred one to the other, and, in this particular case, I'm referring to, ... on the windshield of this lady's car were bird droppings, free-flying bird droppings. What did she do? She took her handkerchief, and she wet on it, and rubbed it clean. What she didn't do was get rid of that handkerchief. She had that handkerchief again, ... and the transfer, ... just because you do have avian tuberculosis, you do have man-mammalian tuberculosis. So, it's a matter of which one you have or have access to.

MB: Were there any other major diseases that you dealt with?

DT: That's another subject.

MB: I mean, particularly diseases that you would have knowledge of?

DT: Still on my mind, let me think, [laughter] ... let's see, where do we start? We've had a problem here in this state, as well as neighboring states, with rabies. ... I handled, last year, eight cases of live rabies. I personally handled it. You don't make a mistake or you're dead. I vaccinated in the neighborhood of twenty-three thousand dogs and cats for rabies. Raccoons carry the infection, so, you don't go around trying to pet a raccoon at anytime, because you don't know whether it is positive or negative. So, don't do it, okay?

MB: I noticed in the background that you were elected Professor of the Year at Rutgers. Are there any comments or thoughts about that or dealing with students and such?

DT: Well, [the] fraternity of Alpha Zeta presented that to me. It is just an indication that we do have some work that you do.

KP: When you went to Rutgers, it was a very small school, both the number of faculty ...

DT: One hundred and three.

KP: And, when you would retire, it would be a much larger school. Even the College of Agriculture would be larger and the entire University would be enormous.

DT: No question about that.

KP: What had changed most dramatically for you? Were there things that you had thought stayed the same, or very similar, both among students, faculty, the college itself?

DT: Well, if I had the job of night watchman, I wouldn't be carrying a .45. That's one difference. ... Well, I know, I know, I'm on the board over at (Helyar?) House, that there are difficulties in getting students to fill those slots. I think we have forty individuals that can be housed ... and we don't get that many. When I was a student, there was quite a fight to get what there were.

KP: Why was there such a fight when you were a student?

DT: ... Because it enabled me ... to get funds. It enabled me to get things. ... I couldn't have gone through school without having that background, that money, coming forth. I remember going up to the dean's office, paying my bills every semester, and, boy, I had to count it out to know whether I was going be able to stay in school. That's a simple reason you don't anticipate or think about [something] until you're there.

MB: Since you were in the Ag College and sort of separated from the main campus, was there a different sort of social environment?

DT: Oh, yes, very different. All the students across town always looked down on the Agies. They would make themselves known that they were better than we were, and, of course, the sophomores were just about as bad.

KP: So, you remember being hazed as a freshman.

DT: That's right and we all had to wear little dunce caps.

MB: And, the green tie?

DT: Yup. Little dink and little, what do you call it, little lid ... on the pot. Sophomores always used to take joy out of making life a little more difficult, but, at times, it was fun. I remember, one night, I was tired, and we had three tier bunks in the upstairs, and the person who got on the bottom always, or often, got kicked. The other aspect of it was, the person on the top got the feet from the other person and got knocked out of bed. Fortunately, the fellahs that had that happen to them were fortunate enough to not get hurt coming down, because, when you get kicked from underneath, that bedspring gives. You're flying.

MB: As a freshman, you had to wear the clothing. Do you remember, when you were a sophomore, I think, there was a revolt by the freshman against wearing the dinks and the green tie?

DT: I think that was later on. In the very beginning, you wore it or else. It was fun, though. I'm glad we had [it]. ...

KP: Did you ever join a fraternity or did you ever think of joining a fraternity?

DT: No, I couldn't. I couldn't spend the money. I didn't have it. I was invited to be a member on several occasions, but, actually, the living group that I was associated with, ... we enjoyed each other's company and it didn't make that much difference. I couldn't afford it, just didn't have the money.

MB: Since you were in the Agricultural College, I guess you would have played a part in Ag Field Day. Do you remember the first few Ag Field Days, how that started, what the activities were?

DT: I had a piece of paper here, I'll find it. [rustling] I was going to show you something, but, I guess I won't. I had it somewhere. ... I took a group, ... tank members from Chicago, down to Tex-Arkana, and then, onto Hood, which was the tank battalion. Abilene was where I took my basic infantry and medical basic. Then, I went on to Pennsylvania to get my bars, so to speak. Abilene was an interesting place, where we did our bivouac area underneath the eucalyptus trees. That's about as much as I can tell you at this point. That's where I had 120 degrees. Your turn. [laughs]

MB: Getting back to the Ag Field Day, do you have any memories about it?

DT: Yes, now I remember. My father was on the Board of Agriculture in his county, Cape May County, and I have the picture. I was pleased to have my father as an active member in agricultural interests on campus. I used to come up here visiting with my College of Agriculture teacher, who was Mr. Reece, at that point. ... My father was interested in Ag Field Day, because various members of [the] extension staff would present newer ideas and thoughts concerning poultry, or whatever. ... Ag Field Day was one that was initiated because extension people established a day where you could come on campus and learn something about how chickens could be reared, how the cabbage heads could be fed to the chickens, and so forth. That was what I was trying to think about.

MB: Well, I do not know if you have been to a recent Ag Field Day.

DT: Yes.

MB: It seems to have changed a lot.

DT: It was stopped for a period of time and I got a hold of a number of the students here on campus. I was on the staff, at that point, and I simply told selected individuals that they ought to have an organization, an agricultural group on campus, and, thus, they did, and, as a result, we continue to have [Ag Field Day]. ...

MB: I think a lot of students really have enjoyed Ag Field Day. It seems to be, now, a big sort of ...

DT: Attraction.

MB: Yes. So, with the Ag College, I think it eventually became Cook College in 1973. Were there any changes, besides the name, in the composition of the college in forming Cook College?

DT: If anything, I think the school is growing in numbers and in abilities. I feel strongly that there was quite a bit of difference in what they were doing forty years ago and what they are doing now. Okay?

MB: When it did become Cook College, being one of the faculty, were there any administration changes within the college? Did they change the courses or topics included in the Agricultural College?

DT: I know that my course in animal pathology was required by the students, and by faculty, and that was given every year. I was pleased and thankful that they did accept it in, 'cause I think they got a good training for their dollar. I think it was used wisely.

KP: As a member of the Rutgers community, you saw a lot of presidents, beginning with President Clothier. Do you have any memories of any of the presidents, or any contact, like Mason Gross or President Jones?

DT: I never had any close contact with them. Yes, I would meet them at meetings, but, beyond that, I was not much of a politician. I do say, and I'm pleased to say it, I was one who initiated a pavilion. Do you know what I mean by pavilion?

MB: I do not particularly know what the pavilion is.

DT: Well, when I was a student, the WPA came over to our campus and built a log cabin. That log cabin served as a collection place, a place where individuals could enjoy getting together as a group. Two large fireplaces in there made it very homely, very cozy, but, about the time that I went into the service, they decided to discontinue it. After that, it was picked up again, and it is a building that had to be enlarged, simply because the class size has grown. Where it used to be one hundred and three students, it is now considerably more. I'm not sure what the final tally is, but, it is considerably greater than it was. I would guess, maybe you could tell me, ... that [it'd] probably be around three times, maybe four times, [the] students that we had, so that the pavilion provided for extension of the walls. That's what it really amounts to. It's an additional building. You will find that each block between the two buildings can be obtained, so that the blocks speak for themselves. They are initialed and you can buy the brick to put it in.

MB: You were at Rutgers when women first entered the undergraduate system.

DT: We had one girl. Then, Professor Helyar assigned one of the boys, the biggest fellah in the class, to watch over her, believe it or not. He had her pegged for that particular job. Any class, he would always look for her, and, if she wasn't there, find out why.

MB: Did you notice any difficulties among the students with women now being part of the campus?

DT: I think it's appreciated. I think the fellahs enjoy having the girls over here and I'm sure you're happy, too.

MB: Definitely.

DT: I was sort of disappointed that you are still having the [other problems]. ... I just don't fathom why people want to hurt each other. That's what it amounts to.

KP: Is there anything we forgot to ask you about your wartime career, your experiences at Rutgers, or growing up?

DT: I've had very little experience, I think.

MB: The Agricultural College was on the same side of town as NJC, or the Co-op. Was there any difference between how Rutgers College men, the people on College Avenue Campus, and the Agricultural College felt about NJC?

DT: I would be one to say that girls add a lot to the campus and I dare say that some of them are smarter than we are. I'm pleased to see there is that competition.

MB: So, there were some benefits, too.

DT: There's benefit.

MB: There are two things, going back to your past. You said you were not involved in politics, but, when I was reading about Cape May County, I had heard that they had always been very Republican, while the rest of the state had been very Democratic.

DT: I suspect that's true.

MB: Did you notice anything in the elections, particularly of FDR, or even when you were younger, maybe, with some of the Republican Presidents, Hoover, etc.?

DT: I really don't have any answers for you. I suspect you are right in what you said.

KP: Well, your parents were Republican.

MB: Since you did deal with veterinary science and did become a veterinarian, would you have any insights on the flu epidemic of 1918? Did that effect your family? Did you know if that effected your family before?

DT: I was too young to know the difference. I'm sure there is politics in everything that you do. You just keep your eyes and ears open and make your own decisions.

KP: Well, thank you very much. ...

MB: I have one more question. I am intrigued a lot by science, and since you have been in the field of animal science, I am not really sure how many years, I was interested if you had insights into the recent Hong Kong flu, the avian flu, that outbreak?

DT: Apparently, there are some variations of influenza that are out that are not made captive at this point. I think ... the medical profession [must] ... be aware that there are problems with various strains and they will continue to be.

MB: Do you think there will be a problem in the future?

DT: As long as people are willing to cook their food, they'll have no problems. As long as you use reasonable judgment in selection of food and handling of food, you will be all right. I didn't have pasteurization when I was a kid. I didn't have the influenza problem that we have now. It's just a matter of being aware of what your problems might be.

MB: I cannot really think of any more questions in that vein.

DT: I hope I've given you some ideas that you can use.

KP: Well, thank you very much. This concludes an interview with Dr. David Tudor on March 13, 1998, in Cranbury, New Jersey, with Kurt Piehler and ...

MB: Marcel Brus-Ramer.

----------------------------------------END OF INTERVIEW -------------------------------------

Reviewed by Bojan Stefanovic 9/19/99

Reviewed by Shaun Illingworth 9/20/99

Reviewed by Sandra Stewart Holyoak 9/22/99

Reviewed by Dr. David Tudor 11/23/99