• Interviewee: Goff, Lucille Miller
  • PDF Interview: goff_lucille_miller.pdf
  • Date: September 23, 1998
  • Place: New Brunswick, New Jersey
  • Interviewers:
    • Laura Micolletti
  • Transcript Production Team:
    • Cecilia M. Navas
    • Colleen Shanahan
    • Lucille Miller Goff
    • Sandra Stewart Holyoak
  • Recommended Citation: Goff, Lucille Miller Oral History Interview, September 23, 1998, by Laura Micolletti, Page #, Rutgers Oral History Archives. Online: Insert URL (Last Accessed: Insert Date).
  • Permission:

    Permission to quote from this transcript must be obtained from the Rutgers Oral History Archives. This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.


Laura Micolletti: This begins an interview with Mrs. Lucille Miller Goff on September 23, 1998, at Rutgers University in New Brunswick, New Jersey, with Laura Micolletti. How did your parents meet?

Lucille Miller Goff: I have no idea.

LM: You don't know.

LG: No, I'm sorry

LM: Okay. Well, your father came from Czechoslovakia.

LG: We think so, yes

LM: Oh, you think so.

LG: ... That's, ... yes.

LM: You don't know much about that.

LG: No.

LM: Why he left or anything?

LG: No, but my mother was born in Newark, New Jersey.

LM: Yes. What did your father do for a living?

LG: He was in his own business, sold wholesale plumbing supplies, ... equipment and whatever.

LM: It was his own business.

LG: It was his own business.

LM: Was he involved in any groups or clubs?

LG: Nothing like that. No, I don't think so.

LM: What about your mother? You said that she worked in her own business.

LG: That's right

LM: Do you know exactly what she did?

LG: Yes. ... My uncles owned property, ... they were involved in what was called, in those days, Building and Loans. She collected rent for them. She bought her own real estate and sold it, too. She was really an advanced career girl. She didn't get married until her late thirties.

LM: She worked before she was married?

LG: Yes, she did.

LM: Did she work at all after she was married?

LG: Well, ... it wouldn't be called employment, but she did buy and sell real estate and investments.

LM: So, she carried on some sort of career for herself.

LG: Yes, she had financial interests.

LM: That is interesting. Was she involved in any clubs or organizations?

LG: No. I think she started to once. I think there was something where she helped in a hospital, she went once and she couldn't stand it. It was too tearful for her.

LM: How did the Great Depression affect your family?

LG: It really did. My father died in 1932 and ... whatever assets they had, between the lawyer and the salesman who worked for my father, all of my mother's assets disappeared. At one point, ... we had to give up our home and go into a boarding house. ... I saved all my mother's papers to show she was living on about nine hundred dollars a year.

[Editor's Note: Dr. Sidney Goff, Mrs. Goff's husband, joins the interview.]

LM: Wow.

LG: Really and truly. It was ... really bad. I can't remember any more accurately, but it got pretty bad for a while. Pretty bad.

LM: So, how did you pull out of that?

LG: Well, for one thing, I got a scholarship to college, and I worked during the school year, so that, for the most part, I would say that I paid my own way through school, but I did not have to support my mother. She would buy a piece of real estate, for say two thousand dollars, that her brother-in-law would have told her was a good buy, and sell it for three [thousand] and that's what we lived on for a year. That's what she did.

LM: That's what kept you going.

LG: It kept us going. We lived on very little money for quite some time, or until I got out of high school. Then, things got better. Another thing my mother did ... during the war, ... she had a nephew, the husband of her niece, who had a business in New York and she went to New York ... as a bookkeeper, because his bookkeeper was drafted, for twenty-five dollars a week and that kept her going, too, for a while.

LM: Do you remember your mother working outside of the house?

LG: Oh, yes, that's right, yes, twenty-five dollars a week. That included transportation and everything else, so, that was how ... she managed anyway.

LM: Was it hard for you having your mother work outside the house or you were old enough to take care of yourself?

LG: At that time, I was in college.

LM: Oh, okay.

LG: I got married in '42, so, as a result, I wasn't aware that my mother was outside the house.

LM: Since you were an only child, what did you do for fun when you were a child?

LG: Gosh, I don't remember exactly. I played with my girlfriends, I guess. I can't think of anything specifically we did. Got together, talked, walked, went down to the park and played tennis, played bridge, went to the movies.

LM: Were your parents strict with you?

LG: No, not at all.

LM: So, you had a lot of autonomy?

LG: Right ... if you think about it, looking back at that time, we had peer pressure, but it was good pressure. I mean, we never thought ... to do anything bad because none of us did. We were frightened the way kids are now, maybe. Ours was the same kind of peer pressure, at least for me ... but all my friends were good and I was good in whatever, good students, good, you know, interested in things we never had any problems, but not because of any parental discipline.

LM: What was your elementary and secondary schooling like?

LG: Well, I went to Hawthorne Ave Grammar School in Newark and Weequahic High School, which was a very good high school. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It was one of the best schools in the country. I was very active in clubs, and plays, and whatever activities there were.

LM: What kind of activities were you involved in at school?

LG: I joined the typing club for a while and the dramatic club and then there was ... something that would be considered ultra-liberal now, the current events club, but it turned out it was like the SDA, ... Students for Democratic Action.

Sidney Goff: SDA.

LG: Yes, which now would not be looked upon well, but at that time it was just ...

SG: Which the McCarthy committee would have looked upon ...with a raised eyebrow.

LG: Right, absolutely, and National Honor Society ... I think, there was a chemistry club. I was very interested in chemistry. I don't remember if it was called that or not, but that's about it.

LM: Were you a strong Democrat in high school?

LG: Not really.

LM: Were you just involved with the SDA, or with other political groups as well?

LG: Actually, while going to school, I was not that very much involved in politics at all. My family, if you asked ... the party they were in, I wouldn't know. I couldn't really say.

LM: So, you were ...

LG: Probably more Democrat.

SG: (You're sure your father would?).

LG: Yes, probably. He was quite liberal in his thinking.

LM: Did they discuss politics around the house at all?

LG: To a degree, yes, but for the most part they discussed it with their friends, not so much with me.

LM: Do you know what they thought about FDR?

LG: Well, my father died just before, or just after, FDR was elected.

SG: He died in '43, right?

LG: No.

SG: In '32.

LG: In '32. My father, I remember, though... he was sort of unusual in his thinking. ... I can remember as a child that my father talked to his friends about the Scopes trial. Now I was just a little kid, and they all thought he was crazy. I mean, really and truly ...my father he thought that men were descended from the apes believed in evolution. Some of his friends even ... laughed at him. ... Now, this was well before he died that [he said] we would have another war with Germany, ... and people thought this was most ludicrous. He also thought that we would go off the Gold standard and I can remember people laughing at, that ... this was absolutely ridiculous, I mean ... but, anyway, he was sort of a seer of his times.

LM: Yes, he sounds very ahead of his times.

LG: I can remember that very distinctly.

LM: That's very interesting.

SG: Very

LG: That's right. ... He was a real intellectual, my father.

LM: He sounds like it.

LG: Yes.

LM: When you were little, what did you want to be when you were growing up?

LG: I really didn't think about it that much until I got to high school and college, and I really wanted to be a chemist, a food chemist, so, I enrolled in home ec, [home economics] but I really wanted to pursue ... a career in chemistry.

LM: Were you able to take chemistry courses?

LG: That's right.

LM: As a home ec major.

LG: Oh, yes. There was more chemistry as a nutrition major. We had all kinds of science courses and I had my scholarship in chemistry and physics.

LM: I noticed that.

LG: Yes.

LM: Did you enjoy these subjects?

LG: I loved it. I loved the chemistry ...

LM: Was the Curie Science Club an honor society?

LG: Yes. I don't know if they do it now, but, when we ate in the dining hall, which was Cooper, and the freshmen all ate together at a specified time, which, I think, now, they don't do. ...

SG: Regimented.

LG: In the cafeteria ... but it was a nice feeling. It really was, and at some point they came around and tapped you. ... The people who were in the club came around in caps and gowns ... and tapped the newcomers and you got up from your chair and followed them. That was a nice feeling. Do they do that now?

LM: Well, first of all, the freshmen do not all eat dinner together. It is very scattered and people eat all over, because all the campuses are integrated. You are allowed to eat at any dining hall, so, I am not sure how honor societies work, but for mine, I just got a letter in the mail saying to come to the induction ceremony.

LG: Oh, that's nice.

LM: ... At whatever time, but that is the way it was in high school. When someone would come to your class and cap you, and that was really exciting.

LG: Well, that's what they did in my day and, of course, the freshman all ate together, and the sophomores. There was a freshman dining room and a sophomore dining room, the juniors had a special room, so did the seniors ... actually the freshmen and sophomore was one. If I remember correctly it was one big room, but two ... parts, and you'd sing songs together and the sophomores would sing, and then the freshmen would sing, so, that was very nice.

LM: It sounds like there was a lot of class unity.

LG: There was a lot, I think, yes.

LM: That is really nice.

LG: There were traditions, for example, prayer ceremony in a class dress, and these things were ... it gave you a lot of school spirit.

LM: Did you participate in all of them?

LG: Pretty much.

LM: That is good. What did your mother think about you going to school?

LG: Believe it or not, at some time when I got to be, I guess, a sophomore, or junior, things got so bad, she wanted me to quit and go to work.

LM: Did she?

LG: Yes, I think things must have been extremely bad. I think, my mother didn't know where the next dollar was coming from, nor could she go to any relatives 'cause they were all in the same position ... but we persevered. It was rough at times.

LM: I can imagine. Was your mother against you going to school during these hardships?

LG: Oh, no, no. She ... at first, she was very happy, I think but at some point she was almost desperate, because it was just my mother and me, and things got pretty bad.

LM: Was it important that you went to school?

LG: It was important to me. Yes.

LM: How did you end up at NJC [New Jersey College for Women]? Did you think about other colleges? You mentioned that you had a scholarship here, is that what made you choose NJC?

LG: Yes. First of all, most of my friends came here and I was able to get a scholarship and also, ...which I didn't think about 'til you asked ... my cousin's a graduate from 1929, '29 or '30, and her husband was a graduate of Rutgers. So, of course, the family always talked about Rutgers and NJC, so, that's probably it. I never thought of another school.

SG: Your cousin's classmate...

LG: Was Paul Robeson.

SG: Right.

LG: He got out the same year as Paul Robeson.

SG: He and Paul Robeson were good friends.

LG: Yes.

LM: That is interesting. When you first came to NJC, what did you think about it? What were your first impressions of college life?

LG: First thing I did, ... I guess our fortunes got a little better around the time I went to college, ... I went and got a beautiful outfit, or two. We went to the department stores and they had college trunks with all the clothes, beautiful skirts and beautiful jackets and ... no slacks, people didn't wear slacks, people didn't own a pair of slacks, and that was, I guess, the first thing I thought about, and then, of course, I had a roommate who was very peculiar. [laughter]

LM: In what sense?

LG: As you know, I was an only child who got to college. This girl didn't make her bed, once ... everything she had or wore went in the bottom of her closet. [She] didn't even hang up her clothes, her mother came down once aweek, changed the bed; took her dirty wash home; made the bed, and that was kind of a hard introduction. That was my first roommate, but then she dropped out of school, as you can imagine, and Sarah Genet became my roommate. I don't know if you're going to interview her.

LM: No.

LG: We were roommates for about two years and then I had to commute 'cause my mother couldn't pay whatever it was for living at school. Then, I lived on campus my senior year for six weeks, the Home Ec Practice House, that was great.

LM: Can you describe the practice house?

LG: Well, in what way?

LM: Was it for the Home ec seniors?

LG: Home ec seniors. Yes, ... it was spread out over the year, so that each group had a chance to live at school and it was very interesting, very nice. I'll tell you ... one funny incident I was in charge of making dinner and Mrs. Hazen who was chair of the department ... came for dinner and I made lamb's stew, which was fine, but somebody said I ought to put in a little Tabasco sauce I hadn't even heard of Tabasco sauce and I put in so much that no one could eat the stew at dinner. [laughter] And the other thing that I remember ... while we lived at the house. I don't know that other people have mentioned it, but it was very clear to me ... we had to take jobs. Everyone ... was assigned a different task to do in case of an air raid. Did anybody ever tell you that?

SG: So, this was after ... right after war was declared.

LG: ... I was a senior. War was declared in December of '41, and I lived in the Practice House in the Spring of '42, I was there in '42 and one person had to monitor the radio, and somebody had to be somewhere else, pull down the shades, and whatever the jobs were, but I remember mine because I had to go up in the attic and pour sand on the incendiary bombs as they came through the roof [laughter] and, of course, they would probably have had to drag me up [into the attic], but that was my job, so I remember it very clearly and another thing that we did during the war, there was a course given at school in driving cars and ambulances. Did anybody ever tell you.

LM: I have read about it.

LG: Well, at college, I guess ... they must have had an automobile mechanic, who worked with equipment, probably in the college. I don't remember exactly who it was, but he showed us how to change a spare tire ... take care of a carburetor. There was a whole list of things that we did, which I probably forgot but, we did get the training. ... The college was very much aware of problems that might arise here in this country. They didn't arise,but ...

LM: So, you were taught a lot of things that you would not have been taught had the war not occurred?

LG: That's right. ... It made us more aware of, I guess, a little more aware of what war was like when it was not really close by. ... If it were closer we would have had much more of a sense of the horror of war.

LM: Can you describe some of the changes that occurred on campus as a result of the war?

LG: Well, I just mentioned those. I think the boys took ROTC. I ... remember that I had a pen pal from England, we were encouraged to write to people in the war that were involved more closely and I ... really can't think of anything offhand more. Remember war was declared in '41 and graduation was six months later. I don't think things really had settled in that much.

LM: Did you attend any Defense Relief lectures?

LG: No, ... not that I remember offhand. Not any ...

LM: You did participate in the auto mechanics course.

LG: That ... yes.

LM: That is really interesting.

LG: And remember I only lived on campus ... for six weeks, at the end. My junior and senior year, I commuted. So, therefore, other than living in the Practice House, ... I wouldn't be too much aware ... of what was going on in the campus then. We were called the bees. Would they still call it the bees?

LM: No, I don't believe so. Are you talking about the commuters?

LG: Am I wrong, Sid?

SG: The beehive.

LG: The beehive and we were called the bees, right?

LM: I think that's what commuters were called.

LG: Yes.

LM: I am pretty sure, that's what I have read. I think the bees were a commuter campus council.

LG: I also worked at Woodlawn.

LM: Did you?

LG: Oh, yes. Woodlawn, at the time I went to school, was almost like a reception hall. Celebrities would come to speak at the college and be received afterward at Woodlawn. I saw Eleanor Roosevelt there. After she gave a lecture, they had a reception for her, in the evening, at Woodlawn, and Paul Robeson after he gave a concert, they had a reception for him at Woodlawn, and the students could come in the afternoon to Woodlawn and have tea in front of a fire. ... Woodlawn was a beautiful home with all the original furniture, it was a beautiful mansion, perfectly ... outfitted with these magnificent antiques. It had beautiful rugs and magnificent furniture and in the dining room, I remember the lovely china that was at the Neilson House, and I worked there. I was what they called a New Youth Administration employee. I got fifty cents an hour working in Woodlawn. I'd bake baked nut bread. I made cookies, and then, we would be serving them on these beautiful silver trays. It ... looked like everything they set down was like in a magazine. In Woodlawn there was a closet hidden into the wall that was filled with loads of silver. Part of my job was polishing the silver, along with washing dishes after a reception. ... People would stay over-night sometimes as guests. Somebody who might be talking or lecturing at the college, or for some reason, and would sleep in these magnificent beds with beautiful linens. I mean, it was practically like the White House to me. It was beautiful.

LM: Sounds lovely.

LG: ... People got married there.

LM: Really.

LG: Oh, yes. They've moved all that stuff out now to accommodate the Eagleton Institute.

LM: I worked there last summer.

LG: Right. ... There was one piece of furniture there that was an antique cabinet. It had sterling silver knobs on it, sterling silver knobs, and at one point ... there was a picture of it in the paper and it was appraised for fifty thousand dollars, in 1942. Oh, and they had ... I cannot begin to tell you all the beautiful things in that house and how much fun it was working there. I enjoyed that.

LM: Were the other girls who worked with you in your class?

LG: There were only one or two, not many. ... They had a couple who worked there and lived there, who were the head chef and waitress, but there were about two or three of us that worked there. Not many.

LM: Before the war, at NJC, what did you and your classmates know about the growing international situation?

LG: I think we were all very aware that things were extremely tense. However, a lot of people, I think, even Roosevelt said we weren't going to war. Charles Lindbergh, who they've been talking about, said, "Stay out of the war," and Neville Chamberlain said "Peace in our time."

SG: '40.

LG: Was it '40? Yes.

SG: No, that was before then. The war started in '39.

LG: ... You're absolutely right, but for us we were ... not that deeply involved, but I think everybody was very, very much aware that things were tense and were concerned.

LM: I have read some of the old newspapers from the early '40s. There seems like there was some sort of divide between people involved in the peace movement, and between those who wanted to at least give aid to the Allies and those that didn't want to give any aid to the Allies. How pervasive was this friction? Did you notice it at all?

LG: I think we talked about it. I can't remember specifically now how I felt about it. I think we started ... some of the people we knew did decide to enter the army and I remember knitting things for soldiers, but I don't know that I was very strongly, ... I guess, I was torn between going to war, or not, and, I guess, my friends were the same way, but we were very ... I ... would say that we definitely, we were very much aware that it was a critical time.

LM: Did you participate in the Red Cross courses at all? You said you knitted things, was that for the Red Cross?

LG: I didn't participate in the Red Cross, but ... I went down to the Y, and I made food for some program that they had down there, as a volunteer, just to help out and I did give a course at college. My professor, the head professor for the nutrition department, was (Ms. Dent?) and whenever she went away, I would take over the course for her, and I remember that several of the professors wanted to learn about nutrition. They were very much concerned because the war was coming or for whatever reason. There was good attendance, including the Dean of the College. I gave a course that ten or twelve people were in ... it was interesting, I was glad that the teacher ... chose me to give that course.

LM: That is nice.

LG: That was nice. I remember it clearly.

LM: Were a lot of women interested in science? You said that you were interested in chemistry and pursued it through home ec.

LG: I would say everybody had their own interests. Some were interested in music; some were interested in other things. Naturally, the girls in my class, home ec., were interested [in] home ec, but I think there was a wide diversity of interests.

LM: It seems like there were only a small amount of women who were interested in the hard sciences.

LG: No, I couldn't say that was true.

LM: No?

LG: No. I think there were people interested in chemistry and other sciences. ... I couldn't break it down, but they were ...

LM: What did you think of Dean Corwin?

LG: What?

LM: Dean Corwin.

LG: Oh, I liked her very much.

LM: Did you?

LG: Yes. Of course, you know, the deans now are so different than they were in those days. Dean Corwin was very strict and polite and proper and now ... everything's so much more informal.

LM: What about Dean Bobby?

LG: I didn't know her very well, no, hardly at all. In fact, ... she wasn't a dean when I was at school ... unless it was her last year, I have forgotten, but I met Dean Shailor who I think is absolutely wonderful...

SG: And Mary Hartman.

LG: Yes, Dean Hartman, and they were so different.

SG: Lovely ... girls.

LG: Lovely women. ... It reflects the attitude of the school. I mean, you couldn't have a matronly dean in the school today. I think everybody'd go somewhere else.

SG: Was Dean Corwin more matronly?

LG: Oh, yes.

SG: Oh, that's a difference.

LG: ... I mean, you wore gloves when you visited her. It was a different time. Things are much more informal. I can't remember wearing slacks to school. I mean, we wore skirts and saddle shoes and bobby socks.

LM: Were there any rules against wearing slacks? I know there were a lot of rules and ...

LG: I can't remember. I don't think so, but it just wasn't done.

LM: How did you feel about the restrictions on your curfew or chapel?

LG: I like some of it now. If I look back, I think, as compared to my daughter and the way her experiences were, I think that some of that was very nice. It added structure. We went to ... chapel twice a week. Did you know that? They had ... one day was a religious service ... and one day was ... current affairs. I saw the Trapp Family Choir come and talk, and sing, also William Allen White. They had wonderful lecturers come ... on one day a week and they were really good. Some of the girls didn't like to go to chapel, but I found the lectures good and even the religious services ... it was non-denominational, but it was a religious service. I think it was Friday, the choir would sing, it was lovely. So, those things I liked very much. You asked me another thing about that, I can't remember. ...

LM: It was curfew.

LG: Oh, curfew. We had to be in ... I think, it was ten o'clock ... during the week and I think it was ... eleven or twelve on the weekends. We might not have liked it so much, but remember I only lived here two years. I didn't think it was bad. They didn't say your lights had to be out, but you had to be in your dorm, but I remember there were two seniors that lived in my house the freshman year I lived on what's now Corwin Campus. I think it was called Douglass campus.

LM: Yes.

LG: They had a suite of rooms on the top floor, I would say, it might have been a month before graduation, and they brought two men up to their room on a Sunday afternoon. Not permitted. They were dismissed from the college before graduation.

LM: Really?

LG: That's how strict it was. Right. Can you imagine? I mean, this is not in the evening, not at night, but that was sticking to the rules.

LM: Right. Wow, dismissed.

LG: Dismissed. That's in the record.

LM: Could you talk about the social activities the students participated at NJC? What were you and your friends involved in?

LG: I really can't say too much. I mean, we ate at one table all the time, usually with our friends. Girls were interested in dating. I joined, I guess I joined archery on Antilles Field, didn't last very long at that, but I can't remember much. I'll tell you ... as a home ec major, which I didn't think is true for any of the other non-science courses, I spent ... I was in the classroom from eight-thirty in the morning 'til maybe three-thirty in the afternoon with only time out for lunch. We had so many labs that we didn't have much time for anything else and when you came home, you studied, and when I commuted, it was even harder. I'd have a three hour cooking lab, a three hour sewing lab, a three ...whatever it was, chemistry lab. So, you didn't have classes two hours one day and three hours another day. I mean, I was in the classroom from early morning 'til late afternoon.

LM: I read that in your yearbook.

LG: And then I worked. What?

LM: I read in your yearbook caption, that you rarely saw the outside of the classroom.

LG: ...Yes, that's right.

LM: I think that is what it said.

LG: That's right and it wasn't that I was a bookworm or something. We just had long hours in the classroom.

LM: Did a lot of it have to do with your science courses?

LG: Science, the labs. So, the first year and second year, we all took sewing before the course split into a nutrition major and teacher training. At lunchtime, my junior year, we worked in the cafeteria. We had to run the cafeteria. So, you know, there was not much time and when I started to commute, it was even harder. So, college was really a hard time for me. There was not that much fun. It was hard just, the length of the hours and the time to commute and then I worked at Woodlawn sometimes after school. ... If it was an evening reception, I'd be there from seven o'clock at night 'til twelve o'clock then I first would have to go home to Newark and come back early the next day. ...

LM: That is a very long day.

LG: It was a long day and a hard day.

SG: The last train was 1:05 a.m.

LG: Yes, and a lot of times ...

SG: I know, I used to catch it.

LG: Right.

SG: I was her date.

LG: But that ... was a different kind of experience, you know, it wasn't like I had that much time to pal around with the girls, though I did make friends.

LM: Do you still keep in touch with your college friends?

LG: Not with my college friends.

LM: Really.

LG: No, with my high school friends.

LM: Oh.

LG: And my grammar school friends, but that's because I started to commute and once I lived at home, on the weekends, if I were with anybody, it was with ... the people who lived locally, where I lived.

LM: Yes.

LG: Especially not having a car, it would have been impossible.

LM: That's right. So, was there a lot of dating between NJC students and Rutgers students?

LG: Oh, yes. That was true.

LM: Can you talk about that a little?

LG: Well, I really don't remember. I think the first year I was at school, I met a Rutgers boy, we had dances. I remember we went to Fort Dix...they had a dance at Fort Dix and they had the buses of girls go down to dance with the soldiers who were down there, which was nice, but that didn't lead to anything serious and then once I commuted, I didn't date boys from Rutgers.

LM: Do you remember when ...

LG: 'Til I got ... 'til I married one, right?

LM: Do you remember when the campus news was abolished, the newspaper?

LG: No.

LM: No. You did not really have much involvement in that.

LG: No.

LM: Where were you when Pearl Harbor was bombed?

LG: I'll tell you where I was.

LM: Okay.

LG: I was home. That was Sunday and I was home, listening to the radio. It was an incredibly, scary kind of experience, and then when Roosevelt declared war, I was in the kitchen at Woodlawn, working, on Monday. I had to go up there and I remember being there. I remember Dean Newby came in. Did you ever meet Dean Newby? ... At that time, she was working for the Alumni Association.

LM: Is her first name Edna?

LG: Yes. Edna.

LM: I have heard of her.

LG: Yes, and she came in and we were listening to it together. It was really a very frightening thing. It was ... like something that you never thought would happen, but you were aware that sooner or later we would go to war.

LM: How did you and the other students react?

LG: ... It was a very somber, sobering experience because we all recognized what this was going to lead to. Of course, though, I don't know that we were so much aware of it. We were very much unprepared for war. For all the talk that we might have to go into the war before that, America was unprepared for war, and of course, this bombing of Pearl Harbor and the loss of life, which I don't think really sank in how bad it was. It was only as you read about it that you realize how bad things were. We didn't have that perspective until later. Looking back is different than when you are going through something, but it was frightening. I remembered with Lu, my husband's first wife, we'd sit on the ... stoop, or the porch, where I lived and say maybe we'll be overseas, if we're in the army or if we're helping with the ambulance drivers in Europe, we had a little signal that we'd know that I'm here and she's here. That was something we worked out, signals for how we could meet one another.

LM: Did you ever consider going overseas?

LG: No, because after I got out of school I was engaged, I got married, and my husband worked in the war effort, so, we never thought of going overseas.

LM: Did anyone that you know enter the military?

LG: Not the women, later on I found a friend, not from college though, that had been a dietitian during the war overseas, but I ... hadn't kept up with her at the time. ... None of the women that I knew, the girls at college, thought about going into the war, that I knew of, however, a lot of the men, all my male cousins did ... out of choice or ... they either enlisted or they were drafted. So, most of the men we knew were in the war effort. ... I guess everybody was. ... I won't say for the women, but I would say that most of the men were involved in the war effort. Wouldn't you say so?

SG: The majority.

LG: In our class, most of them.

LM: Were a lot of the people you know involved in the war effort?

LG: I think at that time the ones I knew were seniors or older ... they were interested in finishing their schooling and they weren't drafted until then, but all men went and registered, there was the draft board and they had to go down ... everybody had to get a number the men, and when I first got out of school, I got a job working in the war effort down in ... a factory in Kearney, New Jersey. I think it was, it was Westinghouse.

SG: ... Western Electric.

LG: Western Electric? I really don't remember and I had to inspect radios and I remember this, we ... were on various floors in the building, but there was one very secret place where it was totally ... restricted. It was rumored that they were inventing something ...

LM: Really.

LG: ... That was a secret. It was radar. At that time there was no radar.

SG: No one even spoke the word.

LG: Right.

SG: Around there.

LG: I can remember that. That secret area. I mean, you couldn't go in that part of the building and nobody knew what was going on there, but there was a little rumor ... about what was going on. It seemed incredible at the time.

LM: Did you work there as soon as you graduated?

LG: Yes.

LM: Is that before you were married?

LG: Well, I got married right after I got out of school. I was married at that time.

LM: So, you were working.

LG: We also had blackouts. I'm sure you've heard of the blackouts and we ... that was also sobering, because we were aware ... had at least some inkling about the war.

LM: So, what did your husband think about you working with radios?

LG: Nothing, it was ... everybody had to keep quiet about everything. My husband and I talked, but ...

LM: When did you move to California?

LG: I had a baby about a year after we were married. My husband was ... an engineer and he had a job, it was at Douglas Aircraft, as an aeronautical engineer. They said they would give him a deferment. At first he wasn't deferred, but eventually he was because of the critical nature of whatever had to be done in that area.

LM: How long did you work?

LG: Oh, I only worked about ... not quite a year, I'd say, then I had the baby and ... then we moved to California.

LM: Did you work at all in California?

LG: No.

LM: No. Was it because of your children?

LG: I'll tell you ... which I thought about saying. If you're interested, I might take the time.

LM: Sure.

LG: ... I thought this was very interesting about going to California and it sort of described my life during the war. My husband went there before I did because ... once he was put in 1-A the company said, "You've got to come out right away and get to work or else we won't defer you," so, he left and then I sublet my apartment and went to California with this eight month-old baby. It was ... I guess, the end of January and I hadn't traveled more than fifty miles from my house in my whole life, and I guess, I was one of the more sophisticated ones, right? [laughter]


LG: ... I mean, we'd go down the Jersey Shore, we'd go into New York, if we went far away at all.

-------------------------------------END OF TAPE ONE, SIDE ONE---------------------------------------

LG: ... To California with a baby on my arm, I had sublet the apartment. I had a plane ticket to go to California, but military personnel always had preference. So, as we were leaving the apartment to go to the ... airport, I get a call, just as we're walking out of the door, that I've been what they call bumped.

LM: Oh.

LG: No seat to California. Now, my apartment's rented. My husband expected me in California and I didn't know what to do, but my cousin said, "I have a girlfriend who works with the Pennsylvania Railroad," and she would help me. She got me a nice ... bedroom going to Chicago that night with the baby. So, we get to Chicago, my husband had told me, after he was there, that he spoke to somebody and tipped him and that's how ... he got onto the train to California. So, when I got ... to Chicago, I went to what they called the depot passenger agent. He said, "There's no train out for a month," and I'm here with the baby. I had two hundred dollars and I don't know what to do and I'm standing there ... my husband had said, "Go to this hotel and speak to this one man, he'll get you on" ... not because he expected me, but he was telling me what he had done and so, I tried the same thing, I realize I must have been nervous because people were coming ... the room was spinning, spinning and people ...were coming up to me and saying, "Let me hold your baby." I bet I looked like I was going to faint, and finally ... the transportation manager at the hotel said, "Go down to the railroad station ...speak to the depot passenger agent and ask him to get you on the train," which he said he couldn't do. He said, "But hang around." So, the train that was supposed to leave, was leaving at ten o'clock at night and here it's nine-thirty and I don't have a ticket to California and I start to cry and not only do I cry, but my baby cries and the two of us are standing in the railroad station howling. [laughter] And the agent comes up to me, takes me by the arm and he says, "Give this lady a ticket to California," and that's how I got to California, but it was in an upper berth and for three nights, we were in an upper berth, me and my daughter, 'til we got to California. ... It was a rough situation and why I say that this was traveling during the war. That was a real wartime experience.

LM: Yes.

LG: Right. Sure.

LM: So, did you like living in California? You were so far away from your folks.

LG: Not really... for one thing, California during the war, ... I felt very sophisticated. I mean, college women, there were not that many college women in our day, which sounds terrible, but in 1942, most girls went to work, very few went to college, ... even our professors said we were the only ones with a college education, we weren't the girls going to work in an office or a factory and we had a duty to our community. So, going to California, ... I felt quite like the upper crust of society. Most of the people there were people who had come from Oklahoma and Arkansas, the 'Okies' and the 'Arkies,' they were backward, uneducated, totally uneducated people and it was ... where we lived, it was a very backward, like an Appalachian society. There was not much of culture around. So it was a necessary experience and a learning experience, but it certainly wasn't something that you could say was an exciting one.

LM: So, how would you say college has made the biggest difference in your life?

LG: What?

LM: How would you say college has changed you or has made the greatest difference in your life?

LG: Well, ... I do think I had a very good education. Both in high school, I guess ... all levels of education, grammar school, high school, and college were all fine levels of education for the time and I think that's it. I think that Douglass [NJC] was a good school in that, ... it gave us good values and an interest in learning. ... I mean, it didn't further my career because I never really followed a career, but I do think that as far as how to conduct your life, how to make it interesting, was part of it and, also, I've been very involved in community activities and volunteer work and, although, I didn't work it for money, I did a lot of community service work and I think that's in part because of my college experience.

LM: Did a lot of your classmates pursue careers right out of college or did the majority get married?

LG: I really can't say. I didn't keep up with that many. I'm sure they did both ... some got married, raised a family, and some worked.

LM: Could you see it as an either or situation, like have a career, or have a family, or did you think you could do both?

LG: No, I could have worked. ... I think, as the children got older, I could have worked and I did work. I helped my husband in his business and later on, ... got a job, but the work that I did, was not based on what I'd ... studied in college. ... When I was in Long Island-- we lived there for a while-- and when we came back I joined a homeec group, I did do some part-time work. We belonged to a club called Home Ec Unlimited, trying to get gals interested in home economics, and I did things over the years, but it wasn't a full-time career and I'm really in a way sorry about that. I really feel I would have liked to have had a career.

LM: What kind of career would you wished to have had?

LG: Well, primarily, I would have liked to have had a career in chemistry, what I wanted was food chemistry. I always wanted to be a food chemist and the Home Economics course did not offer that kind of subjects. I mean, I studied chemistry, but not food chemistry and I know they have that in Rutgers now. They may have had it then, but I wasn't advised of it. In fact, I told Barbara Towney ...

LM: Yes.

LG: Yes, I said, "I really didn't have the proper career guidance." I think, because I was very good at chemistry, really, I think had I had better guidance, I would have had a more active ... career in chemistry.

LM: Right. So, what kind of work did you end up doing?

LG: Well, for a while, later on in life, I did some bookkeeping. ... I worked in a real estate office and wrote ads,did their publicity and, as I said, I did a lot of ... volunteer work.

LM: What made you decide to go back to work?

LG: I was going through a divorce and I wanted to be in a ... real estate office because there I'd be working on the weekends when I wouldn't be alone.

LM: Yes.

LG: So, that's how I got to the real estate office, but I liked it.

LM: You did, so, that's good.

LG: Well, you're with young people, it was real busy and a lot of fun, so, I enjoyed that. I haven't worked since we've been married. Have I, Sidney? No. ...

SG: Only taking in laundry for all those years, that's to pay the rent, that's all. That was about it, ironing, too. [laughter]

LM: When you started working right out of college, you were in Western Electric, what made you decide to work then?

LG: We were doing war work, you know, with ... a home ec career, you need to go for five years because you need an internship in a hospital and at the time I got married ... my fiancée ... was working in Detroit and we thought we'd be living in Detroit, so, I ... was offered a job teaching in Wayne University where you don't need teacher's certification. So, that's what I had planned to do. ... But, then, he was transferred to New Jersey and that's when I started to work here and went to Western Electric.

LM: What about the other women?

LG: We all felt ... during the war, we all had a strong, a very strong feeling of patriotism. I mean, I don't know that it's there today the way it was then. There was no question of cynicism ... we loved the country, we loved everything about the country. Am I wrong, Sid? I think that's ... at least as far as I was concerned.

SG: Yes.

LG: ... We were much more innocent, much more childish about ... not having studied history, we didn't see any of the bad sides. I mean, we were imbued ... with patriotism and whatever you could do for the war effort, especially once we were in it, we would do. Am I wrong, Sid?

SG: No.

LG: It's not like that today.

SG: Don't say that.

LG: All right.

SG: Goodness sake, please, don't say that.

LG: Okay. Well, my impression is that it's ... not quite the same today. The lack of television, too, we were much more provincial. We didn't have the ... worldwide sense of things, because ... you could read it in the paper, but even the movies, the newsreels, did not give you that intimate sense of what ...

SG: The newsreels were ... a week old by the time you saw them.

LG: ... Yes, but it didn't have the intimate sense of ... what's going on in the world. We were not as knowledgeable and I ... tell my friends ... Miss Dent gave us a cookbook that ... she's our professor, she compiled, which is a nice cookbook, but my grandchild knows more about the kinds of food there are than those that are in that book. It is ...

SG: And she's only nine years old.

LG: And she's nine years old. I mean, the things that are in this book, and ... Miss Dent was a very knowledgeable, capable person ... were much more localized than anything you could see today. It's a difference of the cultures, today.

LM: So, you mentioned that you went to work because of patriotism. What about the other women? Were they mostly married or were they single?

LG: Some of my friends were married, some were getting married. Some were working, the married ones didn't work. For the most, when they got married, or had children, shortly thereafter, they stopped working. I don't know of many people who ... worked with the war effort ...

SG: She-- Lu-- worked with the ...


SG: USDA, inspecting foods for the Armed Forces. That was my late wife.

LG: Yes, right, but ...

SG: And ...

LG: ... I don't know of anybody else of my friends ...

SG: ... Ethel was a teacher.

LG: Yes, and some worked in offices.

SG: Yes.

LG: But, we don't do war work. Out in California, there was a lot of war workers. Everybody was working for the war effort there.

LM: Were you involved with that at all? Like, even volunteer activities ...

LG: I lived in the middle of nowhere. No cars, no telephone, I mean, not even the phone and no transportation. It was very rough out there. By rough, I mean, it was very primitive. During the war, the little communities sprung up to house war workers, because of Douglas Aircraft, and the shipyards, a lot of it was war effort.

LM: So, when did you get engaged?

LG: In the beginning of my senior year.

LM: Oh, okay.

LG: And married at the end of my senior year.

LM: So, how did you meet your husband?

LG: We were working on a political campaign to elect a ... commissioner in Newark, as a matter-of-fact, what happened was I needed a job. ... In home ec, we had to work ... not only during the year, but in the summer. We kept house one year and I had to work in a hospital another year. For ... six weeks over the summer and I needed the job. So, somebody said, "Talk to this guy," and he said, "You help in the political campaign, I'll get you a job." Right. [laughter] So, ... I helped and my former husband was working there, too, and that's how I met him.

LM: What did you think about working on a political campaign?

LG: Oh, all we had to do was walk around and ... ring doorbells and say vote for this one and that. So, it was ... only to get the job. I was not really that interested in what went on.

LM: I got it. You mentioned being involved in a lot of volunteer work.

LG: Yes.

LM: Can you elaborate?

LG: Oh, yes. I have a retarded daughter. So, I always worked for that, from the time I started to do volunteer work. I always worked there and then I worked in various organizations that helped retarded children, like National Council of Jewish Women, they ran a canteen and a ... training school for children and helped in a preschool class. So, I was always either raising money or volunteering there and I did a lot of work for them and I guess, every other thing I worked ... for, primarily, was involved in how it furthered that, retarded children and also, lately, since I married Sid, and we moved to ... where we live now, I got involved in the ... is it political? Amongthe ...

SG: Well, yes ... we were political appointments.

LG: ... Political appointments. I'm on the local Assistance Board and I'm on the Senior Advisory Council, and I chaired both of those for quite a while now.

LM: What do you do with that?

LG: Well, the local Assistance Board administers the welfare for the town and ...we oversee the Welfare Department and the Senior Advisory Council works with the mayor to look into the needs of the seniors and develop programs for them ... or meet the needs of the seniors and that I've been doing for the last ten years ... eight ... years.

SG: You might describe your efforts with the ... Operation Icebox.

LG: Well, that would be one example. We feel that people who are by themselves-- in case of ... a medical emergency, when the first responders, such as the police or the first aid squad, come, may not be able to give the proper advice, ... the proper knowledge of their condition or name of their doctors. So, we developed this icebox card. We call it Operation Icebox. It's a card that goes on the icebox ...

SG: Refrigerator. [laughter]

LG: ... Refrigerator, and so, when the emergency responders come, they only have to look at the card. If they are a diabetic, it's listed, who the doctor is, who to notify, what ... prescriptions they're taking are all on the card. That's important because the more time you save, the better off you are. It can be life-saving and in some instances, it really did and we also developed a pamphlet about what services are available, in the town, and what numbers to call for various things. We've given a lot of seminars on healthcare and ... we've developed a home alone program for people, a telephone reassurance program. Things of that sort.

LM: What made you get involved in it?

LG: Well, in Manchester, there was a big scandal. When we got a new mayor all the old people were no longer on the township committees, and she requested new volunteers. ...

SG: If they weren't in jail?

LG: The old regime, they all ended up in jail. You're looking to the history of Manchester. [laughter] Anyway, but ... once I was married, and I wasn't working, I did do volunteer work of all kinds ... the PTA and other things. Probably, I gave you the ones that were the most interesting and important to me, but I always volunteered. I do a lot of volunteer work, of all kinds. So, it was just natural, when she asked for volunteers, that we sent a resume of what we did and got appointed to these committees. I was on the board of the Consumers League of New Jersey, which I see a little display here and I was on a board, the Geriatrics Board, for a while, at Seton ... Hall. So, I've always been very much involved in things.

LM: What did you attribute your involvement to?

LG: Partly to college.

LM: Could you elaborate?

LG: Well, as I said...Professor Hazen ... saying that we have a duty to help our communities. We're the privileged class, having gone to college. I mean, this was not the ordinary thing. We felt that we were privileged, to have been able to go to college instead of going to work. ... I may not be able to express it, but it was different then. Now, it's a routine thing to go to college, at that point, it was a privilege and, having gotten a scholarship, ... I felt a need to give back to the community something, so, it's been a way of life for me. Really and truly, ... I guess, that's my answer.

SG: Yes.

LM: Did two of your daughters go to Douglass, or just one?

LG: No, one.

LM: One did.

LG: Yes.

LM: Did you encourage her to do that or did she pick it [Douglass] on her own?

LG: Well, she applied to several. She was accepted at several and then, I guess, she decided she wanted to go to Douglass. The other daughter, of course, the retarded child, did not go to anything but elementary school, but my other daughter went to Washington University.

SG: Washington U in Saint Louis.

LG: ... In Saint Louis.

LM: So, were you very supportive of their education?

LG: Yes, sure. Also they all went on for advanced degrees, so, that was good... My daughter has a Master's in Education.

SG: Master's in Education.

LG: JoAnn has about five degrees.

LM: Wow, I read that when I was researching.

LG: Yes. She's got a lot of [degrees]...

LM: So, what exactly does she do?

LG: She's a ... lawyer now.

LM: Oh, she is a lawyer now.

LG: And she's heading the Corporate Compliance Department, of the Legal Department, of Jefferson University in 2004.

SG: In Philadelphia.

LG: In Philadelphia. [Lucille Goff's daughter, as of 2011, is Associate Provost of the University of Pennsylvania.]

LM: Do they live close by?

LG: Well, she does, you know, we see them often.

LM: That's interesting. Do you have grandchildren?

LG: Yes. Oh, they're going to be everything, but President. [As of 2011, Lucille Goff has three great-grandchildren.] [laughter]

SG: I'd really want that.

LG: Right. They're going to stop short of President, right.

LM: What are they involved in?

LG: Well, they're ... the little ones are young and my oldest grandson is ... out of college and working, he's applied for an MBA and he'll be going for that, probably next year.

LM: Excellent. Well, I think I have run out of questions, but do you have anything you would like to contribute, that we've skipped over?

LG: No. I think, that after I got out of college and I got busy, I had no fervor for NJC. I mean, it was a happy memory, I was involved in other things, but now that I'm married to Sid, and he's very active in his alumni ... and his class [Rutgers College Class of 1942], and in the university, I really feel very much drawn to the university, again.

LM: I was going to ask you that. Are you involved with the alumni at all?

LG: Not really. Sid is. However, we've gone to the Alumni Colleges, you know ...

SG: Yes. Alumni colleges.

LG: ... We went to Woods Hole with the Alumni college ... and we went down to Homestead, the Homestead and the Boca Raton Club.

SG: Up in Ottawa.

LG: And in Ottawa, we also went to Ireland and Italy with the Alumni group. Those were the ones we went to and so, being involved with the University ... makes me very much more interested in it and I can certainly see the then and the now and ...

LM: Yes, and what do you think about that?

LG: [sigh] Well, it's so different. It's so large, and I think, there's something that's sort of a little sad about the size of the University.

SG: And something good.

LG: Well, there's good for sure, but just looking at what it was like then, it makes me very nostalgic. It really ...

SG: Can I add a point on that?

LG: Sure.

LM: Go right ahead.

SG: When we graduated in 1942, I believe the total enrollment of the school was under 1500.

LM: Wow.

SG: Today, your classes are several times that.

LM: I know. Rutgers is huge.

SG: We didn't have the buildings. We didn't have the infrastructure, at all, but we ... had enough for what we needed for a class that size and today, I think, they had more people crossing the street in front of your car than they had in the whole town.

LG: Right.

LM: Really. Wow.

LG: And I saw the difference between my daughter, the oldest one, got out in 1965. It's like three stages ... when we went, when Marilyn went, and now there's such a difference between each ... stage of the college. So, you know, interesting to see, but I feel much more tied to the university now, than I did for a long time. Not out of ... it's just that I was much more involved in other things.

LM: Oh, yes.

LG: So, ...

LM: Do you come back to campus a lot?

LG: We're here quite often.

SG: Well, I usually come to my class meetings, the alumni meetings, monthly, especially during the development of the Rutgers Oral ... History Archives of WWII, and now since my class has sort of dropped out of that, ... we don't have the ... leaders of that anymore. ... I still come in for the monthly meetings or semi- or bi-monthly meetings of the alumni [Alumni Coordinating Committee of the Oral History Archives] or of the class and we go to various functions.

LG: Yes. Yes, we ...

SG: We support the Foundation.

LG: Yes, we support the ... college in whatever way we can. I haven't been at all active in the Alumni Association.

SG: I'm trying to light a fire under her.

LG: Well, you know, there's just so much energy to ...

LM: Only, so many hours in a day.

LG: Right, that's the truth and I think that's ...

SG: Is this interview supposed to be just a general interview, as an alumna of Douglass, or is this concentrating, in anyway, at all, on the ... World War II era?

LM: It's general, but with a concentration on World War II. It is a life history, so, it goes from the beginning up to the present. So, is there anything that you want to add?

LG: Well, getting back to the beginning, my father knew there'd be another war. I should have listened to him in 1924, or so, right, when I was first born.

SG: What would you have done?

LG: My whole attitude would have been a little more ... involved. ... I may have stressed different aspects of my life. If I knew there was a war coming, I may have directed my interests in a different way, in a different area.

LM: What do you think you would have done?

LG: I don't know. ... I think that just mentally I would have, maybe, studied history a little bit more. I think there's an lot to be learned by studying history and people say to me now, "I'm so tired of listening to what's on the television and the radio," and, I think, "we're living through this, all the things that are going on, somebody's going to be studying someday," right?

SG: Yes.

LG: So, I'm very interested in what's going on.

SG: That saying: "What fools can mortals be."

LG: My mother was always interested in finances and business. She [was] never interested in cooking. So, I think that part of the thing, when she said, "Get a job," I guess, she thought, "What good is a home economics career?" Now, had I been studying accounting or economics or finances, she might have been a little bit more supportive of what I was doing, and sometimes I'm sorry I didn't study that, but then, I do think, and I think this could be partly ... based on my college experiences ... is that I'm interested in ... a lot of things and I think that, if anything, you just don't have the time and the effort and ... the energy to do as much as you're interested in, which I find very frustrated. So, I kind of think... I would have loved to have done everything.

SG: Yes, me, too.

LG: I guess, I would have loved to have been an astronomer. That's what, I guess, I really liked the best.

SG: And an archaeologist.

LG: And an archaeologist, yes, I mean, there's a lot of things.

SG: And a geo-physicist.

LM: Did they even have classes like that?

LG: I don't remember now. I don't think so. ... You could have probably studied something in Rutgers.

SG: When you applied. ...

LG: Yes.

SG: ... Of course ...

LG: We remember ...

SG: ... That was ...

LG: That was exciting, Sid and I have done a lot of traveling together and ...

LM: Where have you been to?

SG: Where have we gone?

LM: Yes.

LG: We've gone to China and Alaska ...

SG: We went to China. We went to Mexico, a couple of times.

LG: Alaska.

SG: Alaska.

LG: And all over the United States.

SG: All over the States. We visited the National Parks out in the far West and we visit family in Oklahoma, been there several times.

LG: We've got Elder Hostels.

SG: Also ... we signed up for these Elder Hostels Programs. I don't know whether you're familiar with it.

LM: No.

SG: You have a few years to go before you're eligible to participate. You [have] to be fifty-five or older and they're sponsored by various colleges, universities, schools, and other people from church groups, etc ... where they get a week seminar, a review of featured topics of interest to the area, and they give you room and board, and the courses, plus, they tour you through the area, so you get to know it. You're there for a week and ... it used to be very modestly priced. Now it's a little bit more ... usually runs about four hundred dollars a week ... per person, but it's very educational, very stimulating. You meet active people, your peers. We went to one down in North Carolina... sponsored by the University of North Carolina in Wilmington and one of the instructors there is a professor of, I think it was history, and he reminded us both of ... what's his name?

LG: Robin Williams.

SG: Robin Williams in the Dead Poets Society where he jumps up on the founder's desk and goes ranting and raving, all over the place and this guy had everybody involved in it and ... we learned a lot. We learned a lot about ...the defense issues of the nineties and very much more and that professor was typical of others that we had. We took courses in creative writing and geology ... we learned about the tectonic plates of the earth, and, so forth, and you name it. We went to a Shakespeare Festival out in Oklahoma. Super.

LG: So, even though we ... have gotten out of college a long time ago ...

SG: We never stop learning.

LG: We are very interested in education and ... learning, and we do a lot of things.

LM: It's a lifelong process.

LG: Right, absolutely.

SG: You've got a ... great future ahead of you, kid.

LM: A lot to learn.

SG: That's right ...

LG: The funny thing ...

LM: Lots of things I'll learn.

SG: Never stop learning.

LG: The funny thing is ...

SG: Never stop.

LG: No. Here we're saying this about ... my history and my life, you know, ... I got to tell my grandchildren about it. They couldn't care less.

SG: ...They're ten and eleven. ...

LG: Right.

SG: They're not that interested.

LG: Right. Maybe later on, how things were then and how they are now.

LM: Maybe they are just too young.

LG: I think so, yes. Or I should make it funny.

SG: Well, what's the old story about the ...

LG: I hope they're interested.

SG: ... The fellow that's asked about his parents. He was amazed how between ... his age at fifteen and twenty-five, how much his parents learned. He suddenly realized how much his parents had ... learned in their lifetimes. When you're a ... kid, you don't appreciate it, but when you get older, you suddenly realize, "Gee, ... my Pop did a lot."

LM: Definitely.

LG: But, I think, this ... is an overview... of our generation. We ... can characterize ourselves as innocent. We really were naive and ...

SG: Still are.

LG: ... I mean, certainly more so than people today, especially in our youth. We just were ...

SG: And the same thing will be said fifty years from now.

LG: I don't know about that. I think, they'll make a pact of some kind ... but there was such a naiveté about growing up in ... our generation, at least that's the way I would characterize it, right?

SG: Right.

LG: Okay.

SG: Does that wrap it up?

LM: Unless you have anything else you would like to add.

LG: I'll probably think of twenty things when I get home, but right now, I can't think of anything, no.

LM: Are you certain?

LG: Yes.

SG: Yes, well, thank you very much.

LM: Thank you very much.

LG: Thank you.

LM: I greatly appreciate it.

LG: Oh, you're welcome.

SG: As a history student, if you could find out ... there's a little book published in 1898, that I read, as a teenager, and I loved, and I haven't been able to find it since. It's called The Last American. ...

LM: The Last American.

SG: Written by a chap by the name of Ochs.

LG: You're in the library. You can look right here.

SG: Yes, I know. Probably is?

LM: What's the last name?

SG: Ochs. O-C-H-S. He was ...[a] member of the family... that owned the New York Times. A great little book, very small, a hundred, small pages.

LM: A hundred, small, good, pages.

SG: You might find it interesting.

LG: I think that, when I went to ... college ... one thing that I remember, we were working in the cafeteria, you know, we had to prepare all the food for the cafeteria, for the commuters, and teachers, I guess, whoever wanted to eat there and I remember, it was ... Roosevelt was running against Wendell Willke ...

SG: 1940.

LG: 1940, and I remember having a political discussion. ... I was for Roosevelt and some were for Willkie. ...

SG: Wendell Willkie was a good man.

LG: Yes, but we were, ... so, I guess, in a way, I was interested in politics at that point.

LM: You mean, what was going on?

LG: Yes.

LM: You talked about it?

LG: Yes.

SG: He died young. Wendell Willkie.

LG: Yes. So, did Roosevelt. He wasn't very old.

SG: He was sixty-something.

LG: Right, and we thought he was just the greatest man.

LM: Oh, yes.

LG: Oh, sure. There was nothing that was ... bad scandals, or things like that ...

SG: All idols have places.

LG: Okay, Sid. Remember that, okay? [laughter]

LM: I shall.

LG: Well, thank you very much.

SG: Well, thank you ever so much.

LM: Thank you.

LG: We answered the questions okay?

LM: Every time.

-----------------------------------------END OF INTERVIEW--------------------------------------

Reviewed by Colleen Shanahan 9/21/04

Reviewed by Sandra Stewart Holyoak 9/27/04

Reviewed by Lucille Miller Goff 6/10/11