• Interviewee: Schwarz, Eric
  • PDF Interview: schwarz_eric_part2.pdf
  • Date: January 12, 2015
  • Place: New Brunswick, New Jersey
  • Interviewers:
    • Molly Graham
  • Transcript Production Team:
    • Jesse Braddell
    • William Buie
  • Recommended Citation: Schwarz, Eric. Oral History Interview, January 12, 2015, by Molly Graham, Page #, Rutgers Oral History Archives. Online: Insert URL (Last Accessed: Insert Date).
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    Permission to quote from this transcript must be obtained from the Rutgers Oral History Archives. This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

Molly Graham: This is an interview with Eric Schwarz. Today is Monday, January 12, 2015. The interview is being conducted at, what is the name of this building again?

Eric Schwarz: The School of Communication and Information.

MG: Okay. The interviewer is me, Molly Graham. So, I just want to pick up with maybe what you knew about Livingston College before you attended.

ES: Okay. So, I remember mentioning previously and I'll probably say it again, that as a high school senior, I knew that Rutgers-New Brunswick had several undergraduate colleges and that somebody could apply to all of them or not all of them, but several undergraduate liberal arts colleges. For some reason they were marketed and just were separated even though they were similar. The four major, the four undergraduate liberal arts residential colleges, at the time, were Livingston College, Cook College, Rutgers College, and Douglass College. Douglass College was and is, in another name, a women's college. So, for whatever reason I wasn't sure which I wanted to apply to, so I applied to the three others. I knew that Cook College was more for the agricultural and life sciences, and Rutgers and Livingston Colleges were the undergraduate liberal arts colleges that would probably be more suitable for me. I also knew, or quickly found out, I'm not sure if it was on a tour or I just read about it, or heard from high school guidance counselors or something, that Rutgers College was the largest of those, and then the other three were maybe half the size or a little less of Rutgers College. I don't remember how much I knew about Livingston College's history and mission, and location and some of the differences, but I quickly found those out when I took a, when I toured the campus I guess in the spring of 1988. It just, Livingston College and Livingston campus appealed to me as a smaller community and also maybe a little more diverse community. Maybe in the back of my head I also had it that it was a bit of an underdog or just something a college that tries a little harder. I guess I appreciated the ability to be at a larger university in a small college. I mean, it's hard to remember all these years past, what exactly attracted me to the college, but those are a few of the things. Since I, at the time, was and still am very interested in libraries, I remember going into the library in Livingston and really feeling that was sort of a homey place. This library, near us, Alexander Library, the main library on the New Brunswick campus, the main multi-study library is wonderful too, but I just, I don't know, there were just several things that appealed to me about that college. Actually, I'm sure during a tour that we were told about some of the things that are different about Livingston College, such as its majors and fields of studies that were a little more ethnically diverse than some of the other studies at Rutgers and the fact that it was less white or more diverse on that campus. So, yes, those things I definitely knew about because I'm sure that we were told about those things. So, those were the things that did appeal to me.

MG: How much of that feeling of activism and progressiveness was left over in 1988 when you attended?

ES: That is a very good question, because I've thought about this too. Some, but not a lot; I mean, people might think I'm being unfair by saying that it wasn't as activist. I think it was progressive. I mean, to judge the level or put it on a scale is a little difficult, but I can definitely say from what I've read and heard from alumni from fifteen years earlier that it was quite different, partly because college age students were different and society was different. By then, you didn't ask directly about this, but I'll mention it, the different colleges had different standards for admission and graduation, but they were very close. They were very similar and so that legacy that Livingston had of being a little more open to non-traditional students, I think was still there, but it wasn't as pronounced as it had been ten or fifteen years earlier. In terms of the progressivism and activism, because of the more diverse nature of the student population and the fact that many people particularly chose Livingston College, I think the students were a bit more socially aware, in general, than the students at Rutgers College or many other colleges within and outside Rutgers. There were various protests and demonstrations of activism on campus, but not all the time or what have you. I mean, a lot of times it's possible that Livingston College students led these protests, but if they wanted more visibility, they probably came to this College Avenue campus to the Voorhees Mall area, which is a lot more visible and was and probably still is a more likely area for people to congregate--the Voorhees Mall area and the steps of Brower Commons and that general area in front of Brower Commons, between there and the student center. One of the activist things that did happen when I was there was, on its face, it just had more to do with identity than activism, was students in my class, in particular, petitioning the Rutgers Board of Governors to change the name of the campus from Kilmer to Livingston. That really had to do with self-identity more than activism towards something else. One of the things that was true of Livingston when it started and even when I was there is, though I didn't really participate in it, was the idea that the houses or sections of the Quads residence hall were divided into interest groups. There were several of them. ... One that I remember is something called Intentional Democratic Housing, which was a section of the dorms where the students cleaned their own dorm and got the money to do other things with. My parents laughed at me because I wouldn't want to commit to that, but anyway.

MG: How actually clean were the dorms?

ES: I don't know. Just by chance I lived in the Towers which are the eight story dormitories and stayed there throughout my college career rather than going up to the Quads. There was actually, the Quads were, it was interesting, I think they were both there since pretty much the campus started, but they actually had an interesting division at the time. There weren't enough Livingston College students to fill both sets of dorms. There are three Quads and two Towers. I guess I refer to the Towers as a dorm and the Quads as another dorm, even though one has two buildings, one has three. Anyway, so the Towers buildings, the two eight story dorms, were mostly Rutgers College students. I was actually on a Rutgers College floor because I applied late or something. I don't know. There were minuscule differences, I think. But there were different rules for the different buildings. The Rutgers College managers, or student managers, are called preceptors. At Livingston, it was called resident assistants or something like that. I guess I might have been in the last activist dorm or something, I'm not sure. It really made no difference. Just generally I think Livingston College students were more socially aware than other students may have been, but I don't remember it being extremely activist in and of itself, yes.

MG: Were there issues that you felt particularly strong about during that time, even if you were not placed in a particular dorm?

ES: Right, like social issues? No. I mean, I was socially aware and as I mentioned, sort of chose that campus because of the populous and I thought that would be just a good environment for me, but I didn't really get involved in any kind of social issues. One of the things that I did was quickly got involved in the Daily Targum newspaper, which is based here on College Avenue. Because I knew I wanted to be a newspaper journalist. This has been true, a lot less in recent years, but was at the time--you might gather my opinion or social stance with things through my writing, but it was hidden. I don't know if I hid behind the pen. So, I wrote about student activists and things like that and was drawn toward, in particular, covering things on Livingston College and issues of diversity because I wrote about those as correspondent for the Targum. Those are some of the ways that I sort of demonstrated my social awareness rather than getting directly involved in causes. Later, at that newspaper, for me it was a big deal. I wrote about local minority business people and that's, I was drawn to that topic possibly because of my experiences on Livingston College living in a diverse community but I didn't really get involved directly in activist activities.

MG: Can you tell me about some of the notable articles or issues, or things that you would have put up on your fridge?

ES: Right. I'm trying to think. Well, while I was writing for the paper--it's actually better that I don't have these things in front of me. I'm trying to remember what stuck out at me, rather than being influenced by what I see. I got to interview the president--the president of the university, not the President of the United States. Other university officials and deans, and things like that, and really got a good sense of, I think, how the university worked and I got to interview the director of dining services and things. I think I really had, as I said, a sense of how the university worked. I wouldn't consider myself an insider, but they knew who I was and so forth, so there were a bunch of those articles that I wrote. The big moment that I had was at a memorial service for Sonny Werblin. I think he was the owner of the New York Jets at one time, or the Giants--I think it was the Jets--and a philanthropist I suppose, but a Rutgers graduate from the '30s, I think. [Editor's Note: Sonny Werblin lived from 1910 to 1991. He was a Rutgers graduate, owner of the Jets, investor in the Meadowlands Sports Complex, and operator of Madison Square Garden. He set up the David and Leah Ray Werblin Foundation which donates money to Rutgers. The recreation center on Busch Campus is named in his honor.] I never met him; I just mentioned that I was at a memorial service, he died, but I wrote the obituary for him for the paper and also went to the memorial service and wrote that up. At the memorial service, I think it was somewhere here on campus, the big celebrity who came was Joe Namath and so I got to meet him and I have a picture with him somewhere. But the family was appreciative of my work and I think people thought that I wrote fairly clearly and honestly and well, and sensitively. One of the other articles that sticks out in my mind was, it was another obituary, honest, for a person I never met. It was for a university, I don't know if he was a professor or assistant professor, or what have you, his name was Harold Poor. As I said, it was a routine article, but he died of AIDS related complications. The article said he died of AIDS or something, and people took umbrage with that and really had to do with the fact that that's what fit in the headline and so forth, but it made me sensitive to--I was no stranger to, not that I knew people who had suffered with AIDS, but I was just a guy, nineteen or twenty. I knew it had been around for some time; you couldn't avoid it. I mean, couldn't avoid hearing about it and so that was that. There was also some AIDS research here. So I got to understand some of those things. There was also, at the time, a fellow student, I believe he was in the same class, but he was a Cook College student named James Dale, was fighting and ultimately lost his case, but in the long-term sort of won. He fought the Boy Scouts of America's ban on gay scout leaders, I think. So I didn't really know him well, but I interviewed him once or twice and I appreciated his courage and sort of the openness of a lot of people to live their lives as gay people or as people of color and so forth. That stuff sort of rubbed off on me and sort of affected me then and years later. Some of that experience was Livingston College based, but most of it was just general Rutgers based. Those were some of the articles that were meaningful to me. I'm sure there were some others too, but those are some that sort of fit into this theme of talking about activism and the history of Livingston College.

MG: Can you talk a little bit about the leaders at the time? Who was the dean, the president?

ES: Sure. Well, when I entered the university the president was Edward J. Bloustein, but he died a few months after I started college. Then, after that, the acting president was a gentleman named T. Alexander Pond. Then, the president toward the end of my college career, maybe the last year or so, was Francis Lawrence. So those are the presidents. I never talked with Dr. Bloustein, but I at least talked with those other two. I mean, again, we weren't exactly buddies, but I think they knew that I wrote honestly and were willing to talk to me sometimes. I interviewed a bunch of people, but one of the other surprises was a story about student loans. I called a congressman's office and he spoke to me, rather than having an aide speak to me, and I spoke to different state legislators. So, I know quite a bit about government that I may have not learned about otherwise. Anyway, but those were the presidents. The dean of Livingston College when I started was W. Robert Jenkins and when I graduated it was Walton Johnson. I knew about the influence of Ernest Lynton, the first dean, and how he was well regarded and why. [Editor's Note: Ernest Lynton was dean of Livingston College from 1965 to 1973. He died in 1998.] I actually was going to interview him for an article, but I had a technical problem and he was angry at me because I missed the call. I stood him up or something. I don't know if I ended up talking to him afterwards, but those were the deans. There were some assistant deans whom I remember. One of the ones who, basically I guess everybody from their whole history of Livingston College knows if they were on campus students and perhaps even if they weren't is Leroy Haines, I'm sorry. Mr. Haines was in the first graduating class of Livingston and just sort of stayed and became part of the real fabric of the community. He helped me with some housing issues occasionally, I guess. I don't remember. I know one year I applied late and he helped me get a space to live. I knew Dean George Jones, the dean of students, who's friendly and helpful. I guess one of the things I liked about Livingston College, and I'm not saying this wasn't true at Rutgers College or other colleges, but I really felt that the dean and the staff of the college knew the students fairly well and cared for them and kept up with them and so forth. So, I did appreciate that. The New Brunswick provost at the time, at least for part of my college career was Richard, I think it's L. McCormick, as opposed to his father Richard P. Hopefully, I don't have this backward. He was like provost. He went out to Washington for a number of years, and then, came back as Rutgers president. Actually, I think he was the dean of Faculty of the Arts and Sciences, not the provost. That body, the Faculty of Arts and Sciences controlled or, for the lack of a better term, oversaw most of the liberal arts programs at Rutgers in New Brunswick. So, I don't know. I remember talking to him and interviewing him for an article about multiculturalism and how that was an up and coming buzz word in academia, but I don't remember exactly why. I can't really particularly remember other administrators names. [Editor's Note: Richard L. McCormick was a professor of history, dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, and Rutgers president from 2002 to 2012. His father, Richard P. McCormick, was a Rutgers professor in history.]

MG: What were some of your impressions of some of the deans that were there?

ES: As I just mentioned, I thought they were friendly and really knew the college and the students really well, and were passionate about the college and their work and their jobs. I didn't, yes, I think I was fairly self-sufficient in navigating the Rutgers administrative and academic system, so I didn't really need to talk to them very much. One of the things in retrospect that I could've done, and some more enterprising students did, is they really got to know that staff and came up with innovative ideas of things, and projects and things to do. As I mentioned a few nights ago, one of the things that I did that was participatory for me was to be on the outside and look in on the college and university's workings and write about them. That really gave me a vivid education. So, I don't really have any very detailed memories of the deans except what I have just mentioned.

MG: I wanted to ask earlier, when you were talking about the protests that changed the name of the campus from Kilmer to Livingston.

ES: Yes.

MG: I just wanted to ask about the dichotomy about having such a progressive, liberal, school on a former Army base. Was that maybe part of it?

ES: I think it was. It might have been subtly, but that campus was really sparse for a while. I mean, not desolate, but kind of very, some of those old Army buildings were there and still are there and the other buildings were sort of not part of an ivy stiped campus. It didn't look that collegiate and I guess that was something that I thought, it appealed to me because it seemed like a bit of an underdog that it was trying or something, harder. I guess everybody who was a student then knew that it was a former Army base and [inaudible] the history. So, I guess I thought it was kind of cool that it was repurposed that way. It was sort of an odd sense of pride that it was repurposed that way. When you come in one side of the campus it was sort of, you saw all that stuff first, that were the ugliest and utilitarian parts of campus. I guess in some sense I appreciated that it was built on something that had been useful and now it had found a new purpose rather than being something else. I don't know. In terms of the dichotomy or what have you about it being a former Army base, I mean, it's not something I thought about on a regular basis. So the center of campus has a lot of like 1960s sort of, or maybe, '50s style, like brutal type brick buildings, and then there's this sort of more modern concrete poured athletic center. Some of the other buildings on campus were these sort of, not ramshackle, but very uninteresting buildings. But that sort of architecture, I guess in some sense, I thought was kind of interesting that we, I don't know, I felt like the campus was a little bit of an underdog so I appreciated that. The buildings in general were in good shape I guess. I mean, I know there are leaks and there are problems with buildings all over these campuses and perhaps they, the dorms behind us, or in front of us, on the Raritan River, called the River Dorms, are older. I know that they, because they're older, maybe they have more problems, but the Livingston buildings were I don't know, they were just pretty bland, but they were mostly problem free. In the dorms that I lived in, they had lots of windows, but otherwise they were nothing fancy and they had slow elevators. The fact that there was an Army base wasn't really something I thought about often, but as I said, I appreciated the fact that it was a creative use of land and buildings. There was also, though I don't spend much time there. A large part of that campus technically is an ecological preserve and I guess I appreciated that there was that natural land there.

MG: I guess that brings up, what were you doing when you were not at school or working the newspaper, things you did for fun?

ES: I mean, I had some friends in college and I just hung out with them. I don't know. Basically, I sort of kept myself busy in terms of academics and work. I sort of poured more time than maybe I should have into my journalism work and was very dedicated to that and hung out in libraries. I worked in a library on campus and also hung out in libraries a lot and I toured campus. I went to different areas of campus by myself. Sometimes I went to New York. I mean, nothing very exciting, unfortunately. Obviously, if I were a much more outgoing person now than I was then and for some people that's sort of the opposite I guess when they leave college, but those were the things I did for fun; nothing too exciting.

MG: When did you become more outgoing?

ES: Well, it did happen during college and afterward, mostly. Maybe I'm not giving myself enough credit because I was fairly outgoing, but it has just been a gradual process through the years. After I graduated I did move back home with my parents and after about a year I started working at a local newspaper and started covering things. I did live with my parents, but otherwise I sort of lived an independent life and I was out all the time working. Then definitely after I moved away from home I very quickly became a lot more outgoing. I saw a big difference between myself at college and myself when I went back down to the South Jersey shore during school breaks because I found it a lot more exciting to be at school and to be with different people and really hated to leave. So, yes, it was definitely. I definitely became significantly more outgoing in college than I was in high school and a lot more since then.

MG: At the time you attended, how many students were enrolled in Livingston College?

ES: I would say about three thousand. I mean, obviously we can find out more specifically, but that's my guess.

MG: What was your major again?

ES: My first major was journalism and mass media. My second major, which I sort of completed as a bit of an afterthought because I had enough credits, was English.

MG: Can you tell me a little bit about the faculty in those departments?

ES: Sure, the faculty, I'll start with English because I don't have as many memories, but the one professor that I remember from English, I had him for two or three courses, was a gentleman named Ronald Christ. Christ as in the first letters of Christmas, but not pronounced.

MG: Not Christ.

ES: Not Christ. He would say, "Not the other one." He was just, he really saw in me, and wrote a letter of recommendation to this effect, that I had talent for writing other than journalism. I didn't necessarily develop that. He was really engaging in terms of examining literature and a couple of writers that we studied. Diane Ackerman and Paul West, we had a class on those two authors and he really inspired my appreciation of those authors. I came back to him several times because in general with English classes, many of them are taught in many sections by different professors and you can sort of choose with who you want to work with, who you want to take a class with, so I really liked him. From the journalism faculty I do remember several of the faculty members. From the very first semester I took journalism classes, and probably every semester I did. The first journalism course that I took was called, T.V., Radio, and Film and Society. It was taught by a young professor. I don't know if he was an assistant professor at the time, a lecturer, named Steven Miller who still works for the university and works here in this building and is here all the time. He might be around. He might be in this building right now. He is a scholar and a technician in television production and media studies, and journalism in general. He was just really friendly and taught me a lot. I had him for that course, and then also took his course in television production, and he just taught me a lot about journalism, I think. I had a professor, Richard Hixson, for a media law course. He was a well-known professor in law and just media studies in general. He passed away a few years ago and there's a lecture series named for him and I remember him being very good. I'm picturing one of my, oh okay. One of the other instructors I had was Greg Morris who taught the news writing course and he was just, really knew his stuff and really pushed me and the class to be fearless and ask, not be afraid of asking questions and so forth, and forced that somewhat artificially, I think, by saying, "Oh, you got to ask people the date of birth," and stuff like that and put that person in uncomfortable situations which was good. One of the other instructors I had for two or three courses was Robert Comstock who was a newspaper reporter by trade for one of the New Jersey newspapers. [Editor's Note: Robert Comstock was a reporter for the Bergen Record. He was executive editor of the paper for many years. He taught at Rutgers and retired in 2002.] I don't remember which one, but he had a lot of good practical career advice and just practical advice on the street or in the field. One of those courses he co-taught with somebody whose name I can't, I can picture him, but I can't remember his name, I remember Roger Cohen. I'm not sure if I had a class with him, but he was the internship coordinator and the Livingston Alumni Association actually honored him in 2013 with a Legacy Award because before I was a student, journalism had been strictly a Livingston College major. Actually, in some years before, it had been a Rutgers College major, and then they dropped it for some bizarre reason and then Livingston started again, and then this building, the School of Communication and Information, was built and I believe the school opened in the early '80s, a few years before I started. I know the school started then, maybe, I mean, the school as an academic unit started then. I'm not sure about the building. Anyway, he had started at Livingston and he helped me, he was the internship manager and sort of, one of the other practitioners of newspaper journalism whom I looked up to and so he was a bit inspirational. When I talked to him for that award that we gave him in 2013, he remembered me and remembered my internship and the newspaper I worked for which was nice. It was a newspaper that nobody else had ever chosen for an internship. It was really a safe choice for me. It was my local newspaper in my hometown of Brigantine and not a paradigm of hard hitting journalism by any means, but I made the most of it and that was a good experience. Yes, so those are some of the faculty members I remember. I do remember a woman named Marsha Bergman who retired a couple of years ago and she was an administrative assistant, or an administrator of the department, for years and years. I guess maybe a few years before I started until 2012 or '13, and she was a very friendly and knowledgeable person. She wasn't a journalist by training, but she knew the department and the majors and the classes and things like the back of her hand because that was her job, and she was very friendly and helpful. Those are the faculty members I can think of off the top of my head.

MG: This was not that long ago, but I am wondering if you could describe yourself on campus, what you looked like, what you wore, just to paint the picture of the student?

ES: I don't know. I probably don't dress extremely well, but I probably wore similar clothes to what I'm wearing now, most of the time. Now I often wear better clothes. I mean, I was about the same height. I didn't have a beard. I was a lot heavier in college than I am now and not very comfortable with myself, unfortunately. I mean, I know what I looked like then, I just wasn't very happy with it. I mean, in some ways I think I look remarkably better, but hopefully, I think people would still recognize me. I mean, I basically look the same. I don't know, but I think carry myself with a little more pride and so forth today than I did then, but I didn't have a particular style or anything that I would call my own, just sort of, casual college wear. I don't know.

MG: I am thinking about the style of the time and stone washed jeans.

ES: Oh, yes. I don't think I wore [stone washed jeans]. I probably wore plain jeans like these Levi Strauss jeans and probably because I was tall and heavyset I didn't really necessarily have a lot of fashion options. I don't know. I probably dressed to be, maybe on purpose, but to be inconspicuous. I don't know. I wouldn't say that I styled my hair or wore fashions that were of the a la mode or that were particular to that time. I mean, that was never important to me. I guess maybe there might have been certain brands of shoes or something that were popular at the time that maybe I wore, but it doesn't. I know in contrast I knew my brother was more conscious of fashion than I. So, there was nothing special about what I wore.

MG: I had read that there were a lot of bands and concerts at Livingston, in the early days, '60s and '70s. Was that still the case when you were there?

ES: A lot? No, there was some. One of the groups that I was sort of involved with--I mean I went to some of the meetings, I was friends with some of the people--it was something called LOCO and it's a tortured acronym meaning Livingston's Own Concert Organization. I don't if it's [inaudible], it's just an acronym that, I don't know which came first. That group brought concerts to campus and I wish I could remember some of the more notable ones. I mean, I sort of go for cabaret music and show tunes or something, more than rock. I learned much later that my tastes aren't that eclectic. There are a lot of people who, not a lot, not thousands and thousands, but there are quite a few people that have similar musical tastes, who share musical tastes with me, but my taste probably wasn't typical of most college students so I probably didn't pay attention to the bands that were on campus. I remember going to a, I think I wrote that for the Targum, but there was a band at the College Avenue Gym, not on Livingston, but I think it was Queen Latifah with some other band and I just saw it. I knew they were a big deal and that a lot of people appreciated them. It just didn't appeal to me. So, there were, the student organization and the college, I'm sure did get some interesting music, but not that I remember. One of the things that I've heard about the earlier days of Livingston College was that the jazz and music department was fairly active and there were more concerts in the sort of open area of the open square, it now has a fountain, between Tillett Hall and Lucy Stone Hall and they performed there often and so forth. I don't really remember that happening. Maybe it did and I didn't pay attention to it. That sort of, by the time I got to college I think that college was already beginning, for better or for worse, to lose some of that unique identity as a place where that type of music, cutting edge music was performed only there. I guess it spread a bit more but, yes, there were some concerts, but unfortunately I can't say that I was particularly moved by one or another. Or that this band was there and I thought that was really cool. So, unfortunately, I guess it flew past my sense of appreciation which I just have different musical tastes. I guess I shouldn't apologize for that.

MG: When you say that Livingston was losing its identity for better or for worse, what was some of the better and what was some of the worse?

ES: Well, in terms of the better and again, a lot of people might agree with me or disagree with me, was that it was becoming more respected, but more so than that. People were beginning to see the colleges as not so different or that the students were not inferior. I guess some years earlier there was a perception that Livingston had lower standards for admission and graduation and I think that perception was beginning to fade. One of the former presidents of the Livingston Alumni Association has said this and one of the things we were sort of basing this history project on is the idea that Rutgers sort of adopted Livingston College's methods and just academics and social atmosphere. I think that's good, but if Rutgers never opened that campus, those sort of things, to some extent, would have happened anyway. So the better things are that there was less separation of us versus them and also the, because the RAC or the Athletic Center was built on Livingston and later, a business school, people had more interaction with the campus so it wasn't as foreign. I think that was a good helpful step. In terms of the worse, I mean, the atmosphere that encouraged some of the more radical things that Livingston College students and faculty and staff did, in terms of protests, in terms of really thinking outside the box, in terms of academics, and starting new academics, and standing up for what they believed in and making new communities and so forth. That, I don't think was as evident when I went to college as it was earlier and maybe that would've happened anywhere. I guess that was a little bit of a loss. The big loss that was happening, if I remember correctly, would have been in 1981 with the merger into something called Faculty of Arts and Sciences. There were some particular courses that only Livingston College students could take or only Rutgers College students could take, but they were very few. There were maybe five or fewer. Basically, the faculty of English was, there wasn't a Livingston College or a Rutgers College faculty of English as there was before that, but just one. They might have, teach on different campuses or have offices on different campuses, but they merged. The administrative mergers happened significantly later, but that was sort of, people who are nostalgic for the history of Livingston College, point to that as the first path of destruction of the college. I have some sympathy for that, but I also, think it was that sort of artificial, what I view as artificial segregation. Not racial segregation, but administrative or academic segregation between the colleges. It didn't really serve much purpose. It did for a while, but then it stopped and I think that merger into that Faculty of Arts and Sciences, I know it was extremely controversial and I guess it was done sort of, from what I read and understand, it was sort of heavy handed and done all at once. Maybe it could have done better to be more respectful of the different faculties and the different student needs, but that was, in some ways, it lessened the effect of having a separate college and there were some losses affiliated with that as I mentioned. [Editor's Note: In 1982, Rutgers merged the faculties of the different colleges into the Faculty of Arts and Sciences. It rid of having separate departments for the same fields at each of the colleges. In 2007, the colleges were merged to form the School of Arts and Sciences which rid of having different general education requirements and rules for each college at Rutgers.]

MG: When did the final merger take place?

ES: So, this I sort of know not every detail off the top of my head, but most of it. So, in 2006, the university president recommended, I guess based on some panel or committee, probably to the Board of Governors, because they would have to make that decision, to merge the undergraduate--there were actually five undergraduate colleges, the fifth one that I haven't mentioned being University College which was sort of a college for non-traditional students and non-residential. That decision occurred in 2006, I believe, and the final class admitted to the separate colleges was in 2006, yes. By 2007, the sort of all or most of the administrative things and academic things, aspects, had merged. So since students were admitted in 2006, they were allowed to finish their four years as students of that college and if they graduated by 2010, their diploma said, Livingston College, or Rutgers College, or those other college names. It's possible the agreement at the time, and I guess universities just generally do this when you enter unless, as long as you have a leave of absence or something, if you enter a college, they don't change the graduation requirements from the time you enter, so it's possible, probably fewer than five if there are any, that there are students who entered in 2006 who haven't finished their degrees, but their diploma won't say Livingston College, it will say School of Arts and Sciences. Basically 2010, so for that four years, from 2006 to 2010, there are fewer and fewer. Well, no, I guess the number of graduates for each of those four years is basically probably about the same. The graduation in 2010 was sort of the last hurrah and last event of Livingston College and something sort of people remembered I guess. I didn't attend, but it was sort of the final event.

MG: How did you feel when that happened?

ES: By the time I had gotten involved with the Livingston Alumni Association, I got involved probably in 2007 and I think I joined about a month before. One of the reasons I never joined the Alumni Association before is, I don't know, it's kind of silly, but I thought, "Oh, well, I have better ways to spend forty dollars a year." I actually joined a month before the university stopped charging dues, but I thought, "Well, I made that donation, so that's fine." Anyway, I actually joined the Alumni Association right after that decision was made. I felt then that Alumni Association existed and still does to a certain extent to perpetuate that legacy, so I was happy about that, but also, I wasn't gnashing my teeth about it or really upset about it. I know some people still are upset about it or think it was the wrong decision. I think it was the right decision to merge the colleges and I don't know if I could've done it in a better way. So, overall, I was happy about it. Well the college as an academic unit closed, but the campus is still there and actually has grown quite a bit. There are new buildings and more students there, and a lot more amenities so people like the campus more. I remember a couple of years ago, I guess, we had some event, alumni event or something, and a student didn't even know that there was a separate academic college because he entered after that decision happened which, okay, it's fine. So in other words, to sort of say in a long way, but, overall, I think in retrospect I think it was the right decision and I wasn't upset about it.

MG: I think part of this project is to preserve the identity of Livingston College before it is lost.

ES: Right.

MG: So I am wondering, before we kind of move on, are there other things that you can tell us about Livingston College from your experience?

ES: Right.

MG: As an alumni?

ES: I've sort of said this already, but I think it was a just a small, somewhat, tight-knit community where people knew each other and there was, as other people have said, it was the social experiment with people who were sort of--there were more people of different cultures and races, and backgrounds and that's just something that I appreciated. That it was somewhat created, perhaps with some artifice to put that social experiment on one campus, but also students were chosen. I guess I appreciated being involved in that community or social experiment. The undergraduate college population of 2015 is, I'm sure, a bit more diverse than it was when I was in college, and whether there's that same need for that sort of self-identified community. Well, I think there is, maybe not in that sense. There are other colleges where there are communities or the college itself is based on ethnic or racial similarities or differences, and there's a reason for that, and they thrive, I guess, but that's about it.

MG: You do not have to comment on this, but you keep talking about the racial and ethnic diversity.

ES: Right.

MG: Did any of the sexual politics of the campus play a role in your life, your experience there, personally? Did you feel like that diversity met your needs too?

ES: Yes, to a certain extent. Yes, I know there is a much more direct question than that, but we'll address it in a vague way.

MG: We do not have to address it at all.

ES: Okay.

MG: I am curious about.

ES: I mean, I guess I saw. Truthfully, I didn't see that kind of sexual politics play itself out particularly on Livingston campus as opposed to the rest of Rutgers. I mean, I saw it at, and experienced it at, this university overall. So, yes, so it's interesting talking about my experiences with Livingston College because some of it is based on the college and the fact that I lived on that campus, but a large percentage is not, I guess, based on being on that campus.

MG: Okay. What do you remember about graduating?

ES: Well, actually, I remember sort of being sad because I didn't know what I wanted to do after graduation, so it was a little bit bittersweet. I actually did something not bad or harmful, but quite unusual. That I returned to Livingston College as a non-matriculated student after I graduated which is, I don't know who in the world does that except me, but to finish two courses so I could get an English degree which has done nothing in my career. I don't know why. I just didn't know what I wanted to do in life, so I wanted to come back for four months and so I did. So, I elected. So, that gives you a sense of the fact that I had a difficult home life, meaning home with my parents and I didn't have the social skills necessarily to live on my own. So that was sort of a stop gap thing that I chose. But, in terms of graduation, I was proud. My parents were proud of me. I got the diploma from Dean Johnson. After that it was a little bit of a letdown. I don't know. My parents and brother and I went to have pizza, and then they actually went home. They didn't take me home because I actually stayed another night on campus. I'm a big fan of I Love Lucy and Lucille Ball and that next day I actually stayed so I could go to Jamestown, New York, which is a city near Buffalo, to go to the Lucy Celebration and it just happened that it fit in with the schedule. So, it's interesting. I don't know. It was just practical in terms of what I wanted to do, but that was the very first thing I did after graduating college and just stayed at college a little longer. But, yes, I was proud. I knew what I learned prepared me to have a successful career or as successful as I wanted to make it and gave me a lot of life skills to become more independent. To sort of form my own social life and norms, and relationships and I knew that those things all happened while I was at that college prepared me for all those things, though I didn't necessarily take advantage of them as much as I could have to develop those things. ... I know Avery Brooks, the actor, spoke, so it may have been at my graduation, but if it was him or if it was somebody else I have no idea what anybody said. In terms of the graduation, I mean, I remember being in the athletic center and being at graduation with pomp and circumstance and people in gowns, and they call your name and you walk up the stage, and somebody gives you a diploma, not somebody, but the dean. I don't remember any great specifics of somebody crying. Nothing extraordinary had happened at the graduation ceremony itself, at least for me. I'm sure it did for other people. So the graduation overall was bittersweet because I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do in life, but I knew that it was a great experience.

MG: How long did that period last when you were living at home and working for the newspaper?

ES: That? Three years.

MG: After college?

ES: Yes, wait a minute. Yes, well it was actually there were three years when I was writing for that newspaper and then there was about a year before that that I was doing other jobs. I was doing some substitute teaching and some other administrative jobs during that year before I went to that newspaper.

MG: What was the newspaper?

ES: It's called the Cape May County Herald. It's a weekly newspaper in Rio Grande or as other people would say Rio Grande, New Jersey which is about four miles north of Cape May which is basically the southern point of New Jersey and it covers that southern county, called Cape May County, and it's a weekly newspaper. It still is. I was a sort of general assignment reporter. I covered a lot of general interest stories, but I also had a lot of traditional, municipal, and political reporting work and school board and school issues and school event reporting. Then, I did that for three years and I really loved it in a lot of ways. I was young. Even though I lived in southern New Jersey, it was still an hour commute each way and I got in at nine or ten. I didn't have to punch a clock per se, but I worked all day, and then [inaudible] nights, I had meetings at night and so I worked a lot and I drove a lot. It was a good experience for me. Yes, I was there about three years before I moved to northern New Jersey to work at a different newspaper.

MG: Do you remember what stories you were covering then or something that stands out to you about the Cape May newspaper?

ES: Right. I covered a lot of government stories and one of the areas of government issues that really touches on a lot of people's lives and a lot of people are passionate about is schools, basically because their children are in school and also in New Jersey and I think in other states perhaps, less so, school taxes are a huge chunk of money. Anyway, so everybody has an interest in schools and should, even outside the issue of whether you have family in schools or the fact that, you know, how do you pay for the schools. Schools are reflective of the community and affect the community, whether they're good, bad, or otherwise. So there was a lot of drama with the boards of education that I covered and things like that, and people really got upset about a lot of things, and so I saw that the administration of and the running of a school or school district are pretty interesting and also gave me a sense of, I think, how people can view the world and knew the world either very closely or very broadly. One of the things that I saw, that I think I saw--I know that might sound conceited--is that from what I saw, a lot of people involved in schools, whether as parents or administrators or school board members, were kind of narrow-minded and saw what was in it for them or how it affected them, and were sometimes unwilling to see the bigger picture. I think that leads to a lot of conflicts. Perhaps I, personally sometimes, I have a too broad picture of things and could focus on more specifics, but that's what I saw. All politics is local. Even at any kind of level, interpersonal relations really make a difference. Again, I never thought I was some bigwig, but the different county and town administrators knew who I was, and I could talk with them. I think I treated them fairly and vice versa. So I got a sense, while I was working there, of how politics and communities worked, different from when I got--well, I worked at another local newspaper too, but it was an eye opening experience. One of my other major assignments besides schools and towns was, well, I was a reporter in Wildwood which is a small city unto itself, but it is also a big tourist area, and it's very popular. It attracts a more working class visitor population than some of the other communities around there, so there are a lot of conflicts inherent in that and I went to the tourism board meetings and the city commission meetings and really saw a lot of that conflict and tried to appreciate it and portray it honestly and fairly, and so that was really a good learning experience. One of the last articles that I wrote for the paper, actually I think it appeared the week after I left, was about a school budget election that was being held January 3rd or some unusual time, and the school board president actually said at the time that they did it because they wanted to sort of sweep it under the rug. He said that at a public meeting and I quoted that and it's like, "Wow." Well, actually that, I think it didn't appear the week after I left. It was a few weeks earlier. But I just thought, this is how, this is interesting. This really tells me a lot about how government runs and so forth. ... Our paper was published on Wednesday. Or was it Thursday and this was on a Wednesday? Anyway, it would publish a week later and there were some other reporters there and they didn't pick up on that. They published earlier, and when it came up later I guess they said, "Oh, yes, that was right." It's just funny. It's a whole different world now because if somebody said something like that, or anything controversial, somebody would tweet it right away and you wouldn't get away with that for a week. Not that it made any real difference in how the city proceeded or anything, but I thought I have the power to portray things honestly, even if they're controversial and so it was a good experience for me.

MG: What was the paper you worked on when you moved up to North Jersey?

ES: It was called the North Jersey Herald-News. It's still published. At the time it was published in Passaic, New Jersey and it moved. Shortly after I left in 2009 it moved to West Paterson which is now called Woodland Park. ... It's called the North Jersey Herald-News and it covers some of the towns in Passaic. Well, it covers Passaic County and some of the towns in there include Clifton, Passaic, and Paterson. Those are the big cities in that county. They, especially Paterson, have a lot of--Paterson is poor and has a lot of urban problems, so a lot of the reporting out of Paterson is based on those urban issues; although, the newspaper covered lots of other issues too. I worked there as a copy editor and I wrote a few feature articles, like four, I think, on topics that really were not controversial or important really. I moved there for social reasons and some other things, and some of it was good and some of it was bad. Yes, I was kind of bored being the copy editor, but then I went to another newspaper and did the same thing. It was exciting in some ways because it was really a good newspaper, the people that I worked with were very eager, and energetic, and dedicated to the craft. A lot of them were young like I was or about the same age, a little older or a little younger, and really ambitious. I don't know what it showed me, but it was actually a sort of easier job to do while I figured out a lot of other things in my life.

MG: Being so included in the current events, working for newspapers, what were some of the big headlines?

ES: At that time?

MG: Sure.

ES: If I see an event that happened during that time I recognize it because part of my job was to do the national world news pages. '96 to '99. President Clinton was sworn for a second term. The one thing that I remember that was in the paper all the time or I could always put it in the paper, was--well, actually two areas of conflict in the world--Israeli-Palestinian conflicts were always in the news. There was a big--there still is, in that place and as well as Democratic-Republican of the Congo, there was a big upheaval and formation a nation, and a lot of violence. But in terms of big news stories, other than conflicts, I honestly don't really remember.

MG: I wanted to ask when and why you decided to go back to school.

ES: Oh, for library studies? So, well I decided in 2004 and enrolled in 2005. I had always had an interest in librarianship and research, and hung out in libraries as a young guy, and as a college student and afterward and just really loved research. I thought it was something I could do well. I also, while I was at the Targum and afterward, I sort of had an, I think, an affinity for business research and government research to an extent and just, I don't know, I wanted to learn those things. Although, I didn't actually, well I took a course in business research. But one of the reasons I decided was I started working 2001 for Dow Jones & Company as a research specialist for some of the online databases that the company sells. Basically, they're databases; journalism databases for the most part, newspaper and magazine articles. A friend had recruited me and suggested I apply for that job. This is a woman whom I knew from my work in the library at Rutgers, the Kilmer Library in particular. So the fact that she was a librarian and other people there were librarians, I saw that a library degree could add to my career and also the company had, and still has in some different format, a program to pay, at the time, half the tuition for most programs that a student might enter, so that really helped. It was an opportune time by being in a job for a couple of years and so it's something I always wanted to do and so then I thought I'd do well and I'd think I do well. I had some financial support. Although, I probably could've done it without that support if I had to. So it seemed like an opportune time. I had been in the job for a couple of years and it was pretty steady. It had steady hours, so for the most part it wasn't a problem with the extra studies. Those are some of the main reasons. I knew that this, the program, the Library and Information Science program here, was and is allied with the School of Communication and at the time it was called the School of Communication, Information and Library Studies or SCILS. I knew it was affiliated with the journalism program and I guess that appealed to me that there was that affinity. I didn't know how it would play out in terms of my studies, but I was familiar with the school and I was very fond of Rutgers and I lived nearby, and all those things added to the fact that I could do it and it's something that really excited me.

MG: You maintain a blog, "Eric the Librarian," I think?

ES: Yes, I do. There's isn't much. I don't post to it very often. I know I could post to it more often. So it's interesting we're having this several hour conversation because I am fairly private. I'm an outgoing person I think, but fairly private. I don't sort of release to the world. I've just been on Facebook and things like that, but I'm not as open as some people are about their whole lives but, yes, I do have a blog to answer your question. So my idea is to make it more about interesting things that I find in the world of librarianship, but I don't know. I do that sometimes, but not often. I also have connected to that blog, something on Paper.li which is a daily curated newspaper that I setup these different feeds about librarianship and user experience, and things like that, and it's just something that's auto generated that is easy for me to do because I don't have to maintain it much, but yes, so that's my other public facing way to talk about issues in library science.

MG: I was going to ask why you do not have a blog, "Eric, the Journalist," but it sounds like you have found ways to sort of do both in your job and sort of for fun.

ES: Oh, yes, yes, I mean. Why is it not called "Eric, the Journalist?" When I talked to people I worked with at Dow Jones &Company they'd say, "Oh, do you write for the paper?" I mean, it's not that I'm not interested in journalism. It's not something that I'm really interested in doing as a career now. I have more of a calling, I think, as a librarian than as a reporter. Though I think my experience as a reporter, or just my writing skills in general, help inform, how I write about library issues and how I write about issues in general, so I appreciate that. "Eric, the Librarian," also sounds a little catchier than "Eric, the Journalist." I don't know. At the time I wasn't a practicing journalist, so it didn't really occur to me that I would do that anyway. My blog isn't that bad; it's just I don't update it that often. My website is kind of plain, but it presents a professional image of myself to the world and I'm proud of it. It's also just the domain is a good marketing tool because people remember me. "So, you're Eric, the Librarian." So, yes, I also have all these different e-mail addresses that I use for different purposes, but they all go to the same place so it's sort of silly to have them, but anyway, yes, so I do have that blog.

MG: I am wondering what that has brought to your life. Have you connected with different communities, different librarians, and different people?

ES: Via the blog? Not a lot, but definitely in general. I mean, one of the reasons I'm really glad that I became a librarian is to connect with people. I don't want to say think the same way, but who are interested in the same issues of academics, and the flow of information and things like that that interest me. So I've connected with librarians lots of different ways. I mean, one of the primary ways I've done so is by being involved in the organization called Special Libraries Association or SLA, which is, very briefly, special libraries are libraries that are not affiliated with the school or the university or public. So [inaudible] either type of library sometimes can have units that are special libraries, but they're basically libraries dedicated to a certain topic or sphere, or they're for businesses or organizations as opposed to--they don't have the general purpose of serving the public or students of any kind per se. I haven't been for the past couple of years, but for several years I went to the SLA conferences and I talk with people in that organization all the time and it's really been something that's enriched my life socially and professionally in all sorts of ways. I follow librarian blogs and I don't necessarily spend all my time with. My social interactions are not necessarily with all librarians, but my spouse, Seth, is a librarian too, but that's not how we met though. We just met through friends. He had, by coincidence, had started his library degree seven years earlier, then had to take a leave of absence for career reasons and personal reasons, and finished shortly before I did, and not at Rutgers, at Queens College in New York which is not important, but that's where he got his degree. ... I don't know. The fact that we're both librarians and that we have a lot of other things in common, I guess is part of what attracted us. So definitely, yes, you can say in that way that I'm certainly attracted to librarians. I just find librarians interesting people. Again, one of the things we talked about earlier was one of the reasons I was attracted to Livingston College was the thought, correct or incorrect, that it was somewhat of an underdog and struggling for this social purpose that I thought was noble, and I think similarly of librarians because I think librarians and librarianship, as a field, is misunderstood and underappreciated, and it sort of appeals to me to be involved in that sort of community where.... The field is greatly appreciated in some ways and misunderstood in other ways. The idea that I might help change people's minds or open their minds about librarianship is something that appeals to me. Although, really, it's just something that I'm just naturally drawn to by talent and inclination and makes sense for me as a career, but I do appreciate those aspects of being aware of what's happening in the profession and making other people aware as well. There's just this general stereotype that librarians are not outgoing and interested only in narrow topics and unwilling to be innovative. In my own way, hopefully, I like proving that's not necessarily accurate.

MG: Can you tell me a little bit about the work you are doing today?

ES: Okay, so I have a full-time job and two part-time jobs. My full-time job is working for Dow Jones & Company in a different role than I started. I am an editor or quality analyst for due diligence reports which are detailed business research reports that clients order on some other company usually, and that's what I do full-time. One of my part-time jobs is teaching a course in the Library and Information Science Department here at Rutgers as an adjunct, part-time lecturer. That course is called Principles of Searching. It teaches students about searching methods, but also about ideas and theorems behind searching and finding and user behavior and things like that. My third job is working as a reference librarian at a public library, part-time, about twice a month and I enjoy that too. I get in touch with the public and it's for those who have a master of library science degree, it's probably one of the most traditional roles that an MLS or MLIS graduate would go into is being a reference librarian at a public library. I enjoy the challenge of working with people and managing the library as a whole when I'm there. There are a lot of challenges and I do like working with people there, but that part of my career at least now it's probably not something that I'm not pursuing that particular type of librarianship to do any further. It's not just fun. I think I do it well and I think I have something to add. It helps me learn about that sphere of librarianship and they pay something so that helps. So I like it in a lot of ways. On Saturday, I spent a lot of time helping a woman with issues relating to deliveries and computing and she's sort of a basic. She has a lot of questions about really basic computing and the mechanics of setting up computers and stuff like that. That sort of work gives you a sense of what people really use a library for. Obviously, they do ask research questions and stuff like that, but most public libraries have changed quite a bit in the last twenty years or so to be more community centers and hopefully I used some skills that I've learned in reporting and just various aspects of my career in helping people through problems that really sometimes are based in research and sometimes are not. Yes, so those are the things I do in my career.

MG: Most times when I am doing interviews, I am interviewing people who are much older than you. They are in their eighties and nineties. So, I now have the opportunity to ask you what you are looking forward to in your life and what is next.

ES: That's a very good question. I don't necessarily have a great answer. I mean, Seth and I bought a home for the first time two years ago or two-and-a-half years ago and making that a home is part of our work. In terms of my career, I don't know. Personally, why I think that it's been important to me is developing relationships with family and friends and so forth. Hopefully, I devote a good amount of time to that. I've gotten involved in singing with a chorus and I do that for social reasons as well as just reasons I want to do something artistic. It's something that I started a couple of years ago sort of out of the blue. It doesn't come naturally to me, but it's something that I think makes a positive difference in my life and hopefully I sing well enough with this group that people like it. So those are social, artistic aspects. In terms of my career, I'm really happy to be teaching this searching course because it's challenging and hard. It's not necessarily fun, but I think I do it fairly well and I get to play a part. I just really learn a lot from the experience and like it. Long term, I just have in mind that I want to do some more detailed business and analytic work, but I don't know exactly where I want to go with that and I'm not too unhappy. I'm not unhappy that I don't know exactly where to go because I have a lot of other things happening in my life that I want to focus on. So, yes, just making a good home with Seth and supporting him and his career, and what he wants to do and developing our friendships, and keeping up with family are some of my goals that don't sound very exciting or career oriented, but they are goals of mine.

MG: In terms of this project documenting the history of Livingston College, why do you think, if you think, this is an important thing to collect?

ES: Well, I think it's important to collect the story that I think should get out there, as I know it, is really what kind of forces prompted the university to establish Livingston College and how people benefitted from it. We've been talking a long time about how I benefitted from it. I sometimes feel like it's not necessarily the most compelling story. I think there are a lot of compelling stories about how the college made a difference in people's lives and broadened their horizons and brought them in touch with people of different cultures. I think that's something that should be told. I might differ with some people about how to do that, but I think that sort of thing is important to tell. ... I might view it a little differently. Some people will think the college itself was the catalyst for those things and I do too, but it's hard to explain how I feel differently. I think for a lot of people, it's not that discrete that their experience in college and they're sort of a self-selection had to do with their growth and maturity as much as, or more than the fact that Rutgers established a separate academic unit as Livingston College. Yes, I think when. Well, I mean, a college is more than just its academic components, so the social components of the college really I guess were important too.

MG: Can you speak to any of those experiences of others, where the impact was bigger, or stronger, or point me into the direction?

ES: Well, it's, yes. We've asked alumni to write some of their experiences and you may have read some of them that I sent you, but for the purpose of this interview I'll try to sum up what I've read and what I've gathered from that is that because Livingston attracted, in its early days, students from non-traditional backgrounds and really sought them out--by non-traditional, yes, I might mean black or Hispanic, or people of non-majority races, or people who had, or first generation, or college students for financial reasons--but there are other aspects too, but it attracted people because it offered some ways to get around those barriers, but it also attracted people because it had some new and interesting ways of looking at academics and just starting new academic programs and the faculty were probably a bit left leaning which sort of fits my politics, which is neither here nor there. Those sort of things all added up to people, students experiencing, basically, different people than they would otherwise and interacting with those fellow students and staff members and faculty and that was really a learning experience for a lot of it. It was for me too, but for other people it was a bit more pronounced, I think, that they came smack up against people [who] had a very different viewpoint on life and people who may have felt that life hadn't treated them fairly and had something to prove, and had lots of different philosophies, and that was really a big learning experience for people. It was also, Livingston College in 1969 through about '72, was the only Rutgers-New Brunswick undergraduate, residential, co-ed college. It was the only college that fit all those criteria. Well, actually undergraduate liberal arts because Cook College was residential and co-ed. But basically, people mean that Rutgers College was all men and Douglass College, the two other big colleges at Rutgers-New Brunswick were single sex. So, for a few years, Livingston was co-ed before the other colleges. I guess that was a learning experience for some people. I mean, by the time I got to college, all those colleges and most colleges in America were co-ed, and it's something that I sort of expected. It wasn't revolutionary to me. In fact, after we spoke the last time I read, in addition to that Rutgers Magazine article on Livingston College, it was some official Rutgers publication about the history of Rutgers College or when it became co-ed and how revolutionary that was and how a few years later, people didn't even know that it was a men's college. So, anyway, all those things really opened people's eyes and I think really had a positive effect on people. Again, the college had different majors that weren't otherwise offered at Rutgers. Some having to do with ethnographic or ethnic studies, but others had journalism, computer science and so forth, and I'm not sure why Livingston was the first to offer those, but it was. I guess there was a music program at Rutgers-New Brunswick, but Livingston's was more jazz-oriented as opposed to classical. So all those things attracted a different kind of student and I think that atmosphere and that exposure to students of different cultures really made a difference in a lot of people's lives. So, yes, that's one of the things that I think is a really good legacy of Livingston College. Now how Rutgers would have evolved otherwise if it hadn't started that college, it's hard to know, but that's definitely a good thing that came out of Livingston College.

MG: I have gotten to the end of my questions, but I want to make sure there is nothing we are missing or other things you want to talk about.

ES: Let me think. Nothing I can think of.

MG: I think as I do more interviews, maybe in a few months I might want to come back and say, "We should have talked about this," or "Can I get your thoughts on that?"

ES: Okay, yes. Yes, I know I've rambled a lot, but hopefully you'll be able to edit the sound or something.

MG: We'll put it in a.

ES: [inaudible]

MG: I think it all makes sense.

ES: Yes, it does. I don't want to put myself down and say it's not cohesive or doesn't make sense.

MG: Well, what happens next is I will make a CD of our interview sessions, and then someone will start the transcription process which could take a while. Then, from there, you can amend, or correct, or add things to the record or decide to hold a second or third session to record more information or just review and amend the transcript itself.

ES: Okay, so a process.

MG: Yes, so you have complete control over the content and we will get your final approval before it goes up online and I think we will link to the project website as well.

ES: Okay.

MG: I want to thank you for all your time you have spent with me.

ES: You're welcome. Thank you.

MG: A couple late nights. Thanks again for sharing all you did.

ES: Sure.

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Transcribed by Jesse Braddell 2/15/16
Reviewed by William Buie 12/20/16
Reviewed by Eric Schwarz 3/18/2017